Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:08 Around the colonizing violence against the native Palestinian population, both Muslim and Christian. It is tempting to reduce the situation to a political conflict while politics is no doubt at the root of the current occupation of Palestine. What is often forgotten is the place of Palestine in Muslim theology, history, memory, and imagination, <inaudible> readings, and welcome to Islamic Palestine episode three of the Islam on the address channel of the Maidan podcast, a production of Medan and online publication of the Allie. What I'll ask center for global Islamic studies at George Mason university. My name is <inaudible>. I am curator and host of Islam on the edges. Why talk about Palestine on the Islam on the address podcast is not Palestine at the center of the middle east, which is predominantly Muslim and has been so for many centuries to begin answering this question, we should recall that the sacred area in beta market is, or Jerusalem is referred to, is it fair to in the car and as elementary, the laksa or the farthest remote mosque, the edginess or the edge nature of the sacred area.
Speaker 0 00:01:23 And the question is then established in Islam by the highest authority. The other reason for it being included in Islam on the edges is because there is a real fear and the possibility that Palestine may end up just like I'll end those Muslims pain. What was once a thriving culture became only a distant memory. One should not let the analogy go too far, though for Palestine is too important to the Muslims to be lost forever. Something, one must say in all honesty Al-Andalus never was or will be the case of Al-Andalus provides an excellent example of what happens when people are expelled from the land. And then all of that remains are distant memories and destroyed and repurpose buildings by traveling to the edges of our memory, we recover important artifacts that tie us to our present and future. It is probably safe to say that many people Muslims are otherwise do not have strong knowledge about the central nature of the sacred land in and around Palestine occupies in Muslim consciousness. In this episode, I talk to Dr. Hattan Bosnian of the university of California at Berkeley, and there's a tuna college about Islamic Palestine and its plays in Muslim theology, culture, history memory, and the future. Sure.
Speaker 0 00:02:53 My guest is Dr. Hatton Bosnian, who is an assistant professor, is a doing a college. He's also a teaching professor in the department of near Eastern ethnic studies at the university of California, Berkeley. Uh, Dr. Bosnian is an advisor to the religion politics and globalization center at the university of California, Berkeley. In 2009, he found that the Islamophobia research and documentation project at UC Berkeley, he is editor in chief of the Islamophobia studies journal and founder and director of the international Islamophobia studies consortium, as well as a co-founder of Zaytuna college, Dr. Bozzi and welcome to our podcast.
Speaker 1 00:03:32 Thank you for having me
Speaker 0 00:03:35 Absolutely. Or most of all. So, um, Dr. Hatem, I want to start this topic talking about Islamic Palestine. I'm about to ask you about names and naming. What are the names of the historic areas of Palestine that had been used in Islamic history and culture, and which of these names do you think is most appropriate to use today?
Speaker 1 00:04:03 If we're looking at, um, the Islamic terminology that were used in relations to the area which we call Palestine, uh, one is that, uh, you have the reference, uh, to measure the Locksaw, which is the farthest mosque that comes to us from chapter 17 of the coral and, uh, where the, uh, first verse says, uh, <inaudible>, uh, glory be to his name that transported his servant from the circuit precincts, which is maca to the furthest mosque. So that would be the first, uh, uh, usage in terms of the area within the Islamic textual tradition. Uh, second we have in the Quranic text itself, the reference to this region as beta muck, this, uh, the house of sacredness or cut the, the sacred, uh, uh, land or sacred place, not, I don't think the term holy is used in them beta knock. This is the sacred house rather than the holy house.
Speaker 1 00:05:22 Now there is holiness in the sacred, but we'll set that aside. The third, uh, also terminology that comes to us early from early reference in, uh, Islamic texts is, uh, Alia <inaudible>, which is a reference to the city of Jerusalem as it was referred to with the must be Timian, uh, period, uh, which would be the early period of the contact between the Islam of the Arabian peninsula to the city of Jerusalem. So the are these three references we see occurring, uh, by the, of this, uh, <inaudible> Alia Kappa Talia is in reference to, uh, Jerusalem in particular, uh, as, uh, Islamic texts or, uh, textual sources refer to it as such.
Speaker 0 00:06:17 I see. So when, uh, the choreographers to elementary duloxetine, when the Muslims talk about elementary deluxe, uh, what specific area, uh, is referred to, is it, is it synonymous with the temple of Solomon? Is that it, or is it something different? Uh, obviously the Qur'an is referring to elementary. The AXA, the, uh, the farthest mosque out somebody could say, well, there was no mosque at that time, you know, when, when the, the Qur'an was revealed. So what is it really referring to?
Speaker 1 00:06:51 Well in here, the idea of a mosque is not to be confused with the building that represents the mosque or a present the secret, uh, the reference to a lock. Some mosque also comes to us from a Hadith of the prophet, a Solarize. The prophet is reported to have said that the first, uh, place of worship that has been designated replace on earth is the one in maca, which is the sacred house in Mecca. And then the second does the one that is in Jerusalem, which is a lot some us and between them in the Hadith, it says four years, the understanding their commentators on, uh, in the Koran and number of commentators, I look at almost 26 different commentators on that. Uh, some says that the first designation was actually during the, uh, um, descension of Adam to the earth. The first act of Adam was to locate a place where he would actually reconnect with the divine, because it's not only that it's casting out of paradise, but also there's a spatial separation.
Speaker 1 00:08:03 And there is a Hadid or reference that the angel, uh, guided Adam to the location where the sacred house in Mecca is to be located as a, as the sacred site. So there's that reference relative to Mecca. And then the other is that there is the site in Jerusalem and as such, that was also, would've been within the same time period of the academic presence. The second preferences in relations to Abraham, because the Koranic tradition said in chapter two of the Koran, uh, that God commanded, uh, Abraham to build, uh, the Kaaba, the sacred house, uh, and it is to elevate or build the pillars of the sacred in maca. And he is, uh, supported by, uh, his son Ishmael at the time to build the Kaaba. Similarly that Abraham is connected to, uh, the building and the look and the constructing the lot. So mosque in Jerusalem now, whether that was designating, the site or building is still, uh, is to be, uh, you know, subject to commentators.
Speaker 1 00:09:20 But the, uh, but the interesting thing is that when Abraham arrived into the land of Canaan, that the OXA site or that plateau was already a site of religious observance. So what we could point is that there is a pre Abrahamic period, uh, in, uh, Jerusalem and raises the question of prophetic, uh, um, send legal profits to mankind before the time of Abraham. So there's that aspect to it. So when Muslims do they speak about the <inaudible>, they speak about the plateau that is about 139 acres, uh, that has many different buildings, nine different prayer niches, or prayer sites, including many other areas, uh, in there when the Muslims are arrived in Jerusalem during the time of Omar, there's a discussion that takes place that we find in the, uh, collection of, uh, Muslim, as well as in <inaudible> where a dialogue takes place between a Oman and so fornia, who was the patriarch of Jerusalem on the one hand, and then between Omar and Cabella who have converted to Islam and was in the company of Omar of trying to locate the site of the sacred, where the prophet ascended to the heavens from.
Speaker 1 00:10:51 And, uh, this were Omar actually, as well as the companions that were with him search, uh, to see what the prophet described in terms of the rock that he has ascended from in that dialogue. The so fornia, supposedly, uh, invites, uh, Omar to the, uh, church of the holy <inaudible> as the site of the sacred. And almost said that after looking at it is, that's not what the prophet described. And after a while they come upon the plateau that at the time as it's described, it says that it was a garbage dump, uh, meaning that there was, uh, industry when there was not any structures in there. And Oman identifies the rock that is on there. That, uh, is where the Mirage occurred. The Ascension to the heavens of the prophet. <inaudible> enters into the conversation as the discussion evolves on where to build the mosque,
Speaker 0 00:11:59 Right? What is it, what did he convert from Judaism? He can respond
Speaker 1 00:12:03 And he is into Islam. So he was, uh, he was Muslim already. So there was a conversation. The cabin par, uh, gives all model. The idea says, why don't we build the mosque behind the rock? And in reference, he says, we combine between the tablet of David. That would the prophet Dellwood, which is the prophet of Islam as well in the four Anne and our direction of the Kaaba. So in here, the reference to this being the rock or the site of the prophet, though, it comes from the, his understanding of the Jewish tradition as it relates to the sacred all model comes with openness is no, we will build the mosque, mean the physical building, facing the Kaaba, and we'll keep the rock behind us. So the MAs which we call the physical building, they'll OXA, mosque is what we call in Jerusalem, measure the cuddly, which is the one that faces the tablet or all the way at the end. It's all the way at the end. Now the derm of the rock gets built to cover over the rock. That is the site of the Ascension of the prophet during the Mirage. So the question is this, the location of the temple, the temple of Solomon or not, this is where we have the reference from <inaudible> in that dialogue between him and Omar, Alma does not affirm it, normally gates it rather. He actually takes the opinion that we should build the mosque facing the cabin. Where is our direction of prayer?
Speaker 0 00:13:39 Yes. Um, thank you so much for that. Uh, I was struck so much by your connecting the profits from Adam to Abraham, Abraham, to his smile each mile, to all the way it's prophet Mohammed Sola, how they sell them. And what was really interesting is that when I was reminded of the heady image, the prophet had mentioned that he is the missing brick. You know, that example of me and the profits who came before me is like a person who build a house and then, you know, the, the whole heady of, and he identified, it seems to me that the way you're describing sacred history, what, uh, it's some ways seems to have been missing in the old Testament. The new Testament presentation of that sacred history is the smile side of the story. That side of Abraham's progeny, which seemed to the circle had been closed or profit moments, all that to sell them. Um, anything that you can, um, maybe think of this and connect it to the sacred history into the history of, uh, of fatal mark this.
Speaker 1 00:14:44 Well, as far as Muslims view of the lineage of profits or, or the prophetic is that Muslims believe in all of the profits that have came before the prophet Muhammad. Now the plan mentions 25 by name, uh, but in the prophetic tradition, they're actually over a hundred thousand prophets that were sent to mankind. And then the four Ana firms, it that there isn't a people except that God has sent them a messenger or a prophet to speak in their own tongue. So in here, Islam affirms the continuity of the prophetic figure as the conduit for divine communication to mankind and guidance, guidance, uh, in relations to the Islamic tradition, uh, both Abraham and Ishmael, uh, play a prominent role in the emergence of the sacred in the Kaaba or in Mecca, uh, because, uh, Abraham takes, uh, his wife hogger and her son Ishmael and locate them in the barren valley of maca.
Speaker 1 00:15:58 And it is, uh, there's the miracle that is attributed to that episode of hogger and Ishmael, where she's in this barren valley and, uh, there on out of water and a hogger runs between two Hills, uh, searching for water, seeing for help and miraculously the water of Zamzam or the Springwater Zamzam Springs with a miraculous intervention of angelic intervention. And the water of Zen comes out of there. And it is upon that episode, meaning hogger and Ishmael and the emergence of water Zamzam that Mecca develops, uh, and, uh, a whole tradition of linking back to Abraham through Ishmael, uh, that develops the lineage that from it comes the prophet Muhammad, thus connecting back to the Abrahamic tradition in the Islamic tradition, that the dominant opinion when the command to sacrifice, uh, when the command to Abraham to sacrifice the son, the dominant opinion in Islamic tradition is that Ishmael was the subject of the sacrifice, uh, because he was at the time, the only son for his father and in as such the command to sacrifice is attributed to, uh, to Abraham and Ishmael.
Speaker 1 00:17:24 And it is occurring in Mecca, but there are also a minority opinion or an opinion within the Islamic tradition that still affirms and says it was Isaac and the location being in, uh, Jerusalem. So both in here, Islamic tradition does not in essence negates or attempts to isolate in any way, the continue with you for revelations beforehand and relating the sacred, uh, to all of the prophetic figures they are seen to be, as in essence, a brotherhood that were sent by God to mankind, to guidance. And each one of them is the central message is the oneness of God. And to live ethical, moral life in accordance to the set of laws of Wednesday, the 10 commandments in one way or the other, uh, and to uphold, uh, really the responsibility of being the witness of God on earth. So in this sense, that's how you could connect the sacred in relations to both the locations, as well as the lineages that we speak about. Now, it is the propensity of human beings to try to use bloodline or what you call a prototype of nationalism tribe and, uh, uh, relationships as a way to isolate themselves from the broader humanity. And I think Islamic tradition is counter to that, even though that some with a Muslim might take this as their way of expressing their uniqueness, but I think Islamic tradition textual and otherwise is a countermeasure to it.
Speaker 0 00:19:02 Thank you so much. I think that was really important, connecting the sacred histories of Mecca and Jerusalem. Now, uh, that's a hard thing, I'm sure you're aware of the sometimes deliberate efforts to minimize or negate the importance of all kudos. That is to say that it's really ephemeral to Islamic theology and culture that somehow Jerusalem <inaudible> is not as important to Islamic theology and culture as for instance, Mecca and Medina. So Kenya, please enlighten us about what is the actual place of Al kudos in Islamic sources?
Speaker 1 00:19:40 Uh, I think what we have to look at it again in layered and also historical continuity's one. When Muslims read the narrative of Abraham, they're not reading the narrative of a foreigner, they're only reading a narrative of a prophet of their own, uh, when they read the narrative of Moses, they're not reading him Moses as a foreigner, they're reading Moses as a prophet of their own, uh, when they read the narrative of, uh, uh, of Isaac, of Jacob, of Solomon, of David, of ice Sally's and, um, all our prophetic figures. So the Koran actually, one of the most dominant narratives in the Koran is the narrative of Moses. And for Muslims, Moses is a prophet of Islam because he glorified the oneness of God and was sent to assert this, uh, this narrative. So that's one aspect of it is that all of the prophetic figures that traversed lived and, uh, receive revelation in, um, the, uh, in Palestine are part of this, uh, Islamic narrative.
Speaker 1 00:20:58 Second is that there are at least two chapters in the Koran that are dedicated to, uh, oxide dedicated to the sacred in Jerusalem chapter, uh, uh, of <inaudible>, which is, uh, the night journey and the, a chapter of a NeJame, the star. And in essence, uh, the, both the, uh, chapter of Islam speaks of the night journey where a nudge and speaks of the Ascension. So there is those two, uh, important, uh, chapters of the four. And that relates to this then broadly speaking, there was a whole, uh, prophetic traditions that speaks about the uniqueness and the special status of, uh, Jerusalem and the specialist status of the sacred connected to, uh, both in terms of the, what Muslims should do to express the affinity to the sacred and more importantly, also things or developments they're after in Islamic history, as well as scenarios pointing to end of time, type of religious, uh, dedication to the sacred.
Speaker 1 00:22:11 So all those are intertwined. Lastly, I would say that Muslims who engage in, uh, spiritual, uh, journeys, there is a considerable focus on the literature in the sacred Muslim sacred as whether you speak about Sufism or perfectness of the heart. And so on the Mirage, which is the Ascension plays an important role in many of the literatures, for example, many of the, uh, masters of spirituality, they'll say your prayers is a form of daily Ascension. I, because you athlete come into encounter with the divine as you prostrate in the same way that the prophet went into <inaudible> into the, into the outermost and engage with the divine. So much of this, the literature on spirituality is actually connected to the, uh, Jerusalem to connect it to the sacred in there with the understanding that Jerusalem does present a, a gateway to the heavens because the prophet ascended to the heavens, uh, send it to divine presence from that location. So there is a understanding a miraculous celestial gate in essence, uh, that, uh, connects the temporal to the, uh, to the divine presence in the heavens. And it is located in Jerusalem. So all this is an expression of how Muslims relate, uh, to just to Jerusalem and to the outside as the site of sacredness.
Speaker 0 00:23:45 Yeah. Thank you so much. Uh, now let's move to, um, the post prophetic history. So to say, and I know I'm asking a lot now in this question, because I'm asking you to give us in a few minutes, an overview of pretty much the whole Muslim history, but if you could, maybe in a few points or bullets, uh, tell us how have different Muslim administrations treat this geographical area starting, you know, with actually doing the right, the guy that Cali was, you know, in the army comes to Jerusalem. You already talked about that. Then later, the, you may, as the Abassi, it's the memo books, the Ottomans are, how did they treat this geographical area, this geographical area have a special place. And in what sense?
Speaker 1 00:24:32 Yeah, uh, I wanted maybe, uh, to begin this conversation with the following that the population of Palestine in embraced Islam at the hands of the profits. Uh, so we get a delegation coming from Palestine on the ninth year of the hedgerow to meet the prophet in Medina and embrace Islam at his hand. And we have that, uh, uh, references in, uh, uh, see that even he sham as well as in the, uh, other historical tech,
Speaker 0 00:25:06 This is on as the year of the delegation
Speaker 1 00:25:09 Where delegation comes. Uh, and one of the more important figures is <inaudible> who leads one of the leaders of the delegation that comes to me, the prophet, who also was a, uh, knowledgeable person of the, uh, biblical text, meaning it was Christian and coming and leading a delegation. They embrace Islam, which would be about 10 years before the arrival of the Muslim armies during the reign of Omar, uh, for what we call Islamic conquest. It's important in this, because there's often this, uh, conflation between Muslim military arrival with Islamization that in here, what we have is Islamization and Palestines occur before actually the arrival of, uh, Muslim armies, uh, in the <inaudible> Jerusalem played an important side, because it was understood to be the, uh, sacred sites. So both at the time of time, <inaudible> fourth man Les saw at the time of Allie because Allie's, uh, rain was, uh, a very, uh, difficult period, five years almost in an intense civil war.
Speaker 1 00:26:22 So not only that Palestine or Jerusalem, uh, took a back road, even Medina itself was ransacked during the later days of man. And then Ali had to take his supporters and move to Iraq. So not only that, uh, the sacred in Mecca Medina, but also Jerusalem took a, uh, a back seat. And in essence, you could say that, uh, uh, the <inaudible> period where, uh, uh, Jerusalem and Palestine plays an important role during the Lorraine of Moralia the narrative relative to Morelia. And, uh, you could read an evening, a theater, or even, uh, Tabari that Maya used to spend six months of the year, uh, sometimes in Jerusalem, uh, rather than being in Damascus, he will spend the time in Jerusalem and spending considerable time period of attending to it, the architectural construction of Jerusalem in the way that we see it today, really owes a lot to the, uh, <inaudible> period around from six 86 85, uh, where the plans, uh, for really building the, uh, the <inaudible> and then the dome of the rock.
Speaker 1 00:27:38 Uh, so the <inaudible>, uh, actually are credited, uh, of building the two main buildings that we have the dome of the rock itself. And then, uh, <inaudible> and that became a focal point, uh, because really, uh, especially the dome of the rock is a architectural masterpiece in terms of its construction. It's one of the early monuments or earliest sacred monuments that are built in Islam. And I also look at it as a form of, uh, what you call early form of interfaith debate because on the outer walls or outer surroundings of the dome of the rock is written the chapter of Mary chapter of Merriam, uh, the mother of Jesus. So it's a form, a nod to, uh, Jerusalem having a Christian population across the, the road on the other side is the church of the holy <inaudible>. So there was a form of using architecture in order to engage in interfaith dialogue.
Speaker 1 00:28:39 Today, we do that on what you call a Facebook, Instagram, and all the modern. So the building itself architecture was a form of religious, uh, debate when the mayor lost power to the ambassador, uh, Jerusalem was actually, uh, faced a dark consequences in this because it was, uh, the center of the Slavic rule have shifted to, uh, to Baghdad or the, to Iraq, and then the development of Baghdad. Uh, and it wasn't until after a period of time, uh, almost after the first hundredth year of the ambassador, that the attention to Jerusalem gets to be a renewed, uh, where some of the early tension that was present between the omega, then the ambassador receded that women have lost their power and that Bassett as they became confident and, uh, uh, uh, cemented and stabilize the rule, uh, attention to the sacred actually to, um, uh, began to shift to redevelopment reconstruction of, uh, uh, the <inaudible> and the sacred compound.
Speaker 1 00:29:52 There were a number of earthquakes that took place that, uh, damaged the building. And at a certain point that Bassett were actually, uh, turning away from, uh, uh, sending the resources that are needed, uh, to reconstruct, uh, the damaged property. But then later on, they actually, uh, uh, brought about the resources that are needed. So you could see that there was shift between the <inaudible> and the ambassador, uh, during the crusades, uh, period, uh, Palestine gets to be, uh, really transformed in the sense, and in particular, also Jerusalem that, uh, for 92 years, the lotsa, uh, compound was the, the headquarter of the Knights of the Templars, uh, who were the, uh, you know, the Knights of the crusaders transformed a lot, some ask into a church, uh, also using some of the facilities for their own, uh, forces. So for 92 years, a lot, some us was not, uh, used, uh, by Muslims was prohibited to be used. It was transformed into the crusaders as well as many other religious sites that were, uh, uh, Muslim sites can to be, uh, in destroying as well as, uh, being, uh, damaged during that period.
Speaker 0 00:31:16 Yeah. And I'm glad you bringing that up because, um, when people are talking today about the occupation of Palestine, um, this is not the first time that the Muslims had local control over that territory. So maybe if you could reflect briefly on the similarities and differences, to what extent is the current occupation similar or different to the crusaders occupation of Palestine?
Speaker 1 00:31:44 Well, uh, Palestine has been the crossroad of contestation of powers and attempt to lay claim to it from the earliest, uh, periods in history and therefore the arrival of the crusaders, which it was one of the most violent periods and not to discount the current period in relations to the history of the region, uh, the crusaders, uh, in their own reference, their own record, that when they conquered Jerusalem, they put the soar to everybody in the city. And the references is that blood was running on, uh, uh, all over the city.
Speaker 0 00:32:25 They killed also Christians,
Speaker 1 00:32:27 Christian, Muslims, Jews, the wrong Christians, because Eastern Christians were seen to be wrong, Christians, uh, and also as they came, uh, through their March from Europe, uh, also the, in any area that they, uh, came across, whether it's Syria or Anatolia, likewise, they actually, uh, raked havoc, uh, throughout, uh, the, uh, the region that, uh, they have, um, you know, uh, came through. So the Crusader spirit was a destructive period in, uh, Palestinian history, but you could also compare it to the current destruction that has been visited by, uh, zines. And I would say the crusaders, um, claimed that had sacred belongs to them. And therefore, uh, as a way of, uh, uh, coming to the sacred as a way to absolve their sin, as well as to rectify their relationship with God, that this was a sacred mission, that they were undertaking and as such, uh, everyone that is not of their kind of, not of their, um, faith, uh, is in essence, have to be killed and eliminated.
Speaker 1 00:33:40 One could say that Zionism today, in essence, operating in a manifest destiny, claiming that God gave them this, uh, this land and using a form of, uh, uh, ethno-nationalism in order to lay claim and, uh, evict and ethnically cleansed the population of that as a way to say that this is the way it for us to articulate our relationship to the sacred. So in essence, Jerusalem and Palestine is going through a similar experience to the crusades. And therefore from the vantage point of the Palestinians, when they look at Zionism and we'll look at Israel, they are making the comparisons between the ravages that brought on by the crusaders that are brought out by Zionism. The fact that, uh, uh, Zionist Jews experienced antisemitism in Europe, uh, for the Palestinians that is just not a, uh, a cause for them to face the suffering or to face the ravages of Zionism as absolving European history of what they have done to, uh, uh, the Zionist Jews who, uh, came into Palestine. So there is often, there's a rationalization in essence of why we're doing this is because of what happened to us. But again, uh, for me, this is a causality that is being used to rationalize rather than to actually understand the dynamics and its effects on the Palestinian.
Speaker 0 00:35:11 Yeah. Thank you. So if we fast forward to today, um, who is in charge of Islamic sites today, considering that, you know, Palestine does not have a proper government, um, who is in charge of the OCA for the endowments and, um, I'm sure going to connect us also to the Ottoman period and the, and the break with the Ottoman period as well in the area.
Speaker 1 00:35:37 Yeah, maybe it's good to start that the arguments actually, during the period of the argument beginning from around 15, 17 or 15, 16 period onward, the Artman reconstructed, and re-invigorated, uh, the structure of Al Coff in Palestine. They also, uh, when we think about the old wall of Jerusalem, that we it's actually, they reconstructed the wall and fortified it, uh, made a point to actually set up a whole network of alcohol, especially, uh, to serve the pilgrims, uh, because the, uh, pilgrimage, um, uh, caravan used to gather in Damascus, and then, uh, the Kalief will come from, uh, the Ottoman caliph will come and lead the caravan. And as such, either to come back to stop a Jerusalem first or in the way back, uh, you stop at Jerusalem. So there's this tradition of building our cost to serve the pilgrims, which connect us also to, uh, the Moroccan community, to the Indian community, to the Bahara community, to, uh, various communities that what Jerusalem uniqueness during the augment period is that each of the communities built our costs to serve as their programs and those who want to come and spend time on the sacred and in particular to speak about the Moroccan quarter, which was completely wiped out during the 1960s, post 1967 Israeli occupation of Jerusalem.
Speaker 1 00:37:14 The courtyard that today we look at and say, this is the wailing wall courtyard. That courtyard was actually all Moroccan endowments, uh, or the early part was set up by, uh, uh, <inaudible> as well as Muhammad marinee. These were of Moroccan, uh, set up our coffin there to serve the pilgrims that will come from Morocco in the way in and the way out. So the, uh, Artman set up administrative structure that divided the region into what we call sun <inaudible>, which is a, like a county or a state type. So you'll have the Jerusalem son joke. You had the Annapolis sun joke, you had the, uh, Gaza sun joke in the south. And then sometimes the sun joke of Beirut or Tripoli will actually has part of the Northern part of Palestine. So administratively they set up, uh, this, uh, structure
Speaker 0 00:38:16 And in the Balkans as well.
Speaker 1 00:38:18 So it's, again, it's their administrative infrastructure appointments to positions, whether it's the Mufti positions, uh, the overseer of the, uh, uh, religious endowments. And, uh, they used to send annually what's called the, which is the, uh, uh, allocations that to be distributed, the governors to be appointed as well as the army army appointees who were being appointed in there. So that was the administrative, even though we know that in the 19th century, the Altman's went through a whole bunch of reforms in dominant reforms as one, but, uh, there was records, uh, there was systematic, uh, attention to the religious sites and, uh, they administered them in a really, um, careful way to make sure that the sacred is always attended to, as the British, uh, came with the mandate. Really the British began the process of undoing and administratively trends, transforming yeah, Palestine and making it possible for, uh, the take over a vast, uh, public land or vast land and, uh, sign in it, especially to, uh, Zionism, uh, and began the whole transformation, geographical transformation, administrative transformation, legal transformation of Palestine as such.
Speaker 1 00:39:51 Once we get into Israel occupation of 48 and, uh, 67 one part of the arc of the 1948, is that Israel, you served and took over vast, uh, number of, uh, religious properties and endowments. Uh, hundreds of mosques were actually either completely demolished, uh, wiped out or also taken over, uh, by Israel in 1948. And there are actually an interesting book on, uh, sacred monuments in Palestine and published in 1925. It'll be an interesting research. I, I don't know if I have the time, but to go and actually trace the sacred sites that were enumerated in 1925 in the text and see where they are at right now, which gets me into the administrative structure. How is <inaudible> is administered now? Uh, so supposedly is under the administrative is the administrative responsibility of the Jordanian government. Uh, this is as a result of Jordan taking over the west bank post 1948 and, uh, becoming the effective, uh, governing authority from 48 to 67 and post 1967, continued to allocate the resources, make the appointments, uh, uh, even the educational infrastructure, all that was managed by Jordan administratively, uh, by 1987, when the first uprising, uh, took place, Jordan, this, uh, uh, disconnected itself from responsibility for all of the west bank, but authority to administer the, uh, cough in Jerusalem.
Speaker 1 00:41:39 So Jordan's still, is there recognizable authority, uh, for administering the <inaudible> move to the Oslo agreement, the Oslo agreement created the Palestinian authority within the Palestinian authority. They also set up ministry of Oak cough. So sometimes which actually you see it often that there is a Mufti that is appointed, uh, with, from the Palestinian authority. And there is a move to that is appointed by the Jordanians to oversee the elk off. So this is, uh, in essence, uh, the, uh, I don't want to say the chaos, but it's the unique circumstances that you find relative to, uh, the administration of <inaudible>, uh, mosque and how the Jordanian on the one hand, the Jordanian government, which has the official recognized responsibility, and then the Palestinian authority that is attempting, or at least is in a position to also lay claim to representation and attention to a so mosque.
Speaker 0 00:42:50 Yeah. Thank you. Um, if one is to go to Palestine today and speak to the Palestinians and you yourself, uh, Palestinian and the Palestinian origin, how does Palestine, especially Islamic Palestine live in their memory? How do they recall it? Because to my understanding, a place continues to exist as long as it continues to exist in people's memory. So even though many of the lands in the areas that are occupied physically, how does Palestine, especially Islamic Palestine continue to live in that memory?
Speaker 1 00:43:26 Yeah, I could answer this question from the most recent response, both both of the Palestinians, uh, in Jerusalem, in the west bank in Gaza in 1948. I do think that Israel have made a, uh, Netanyahu himself made a massive miscalculation. Uh, he thought that he would instigate the current trout of, uh, uh, assault abuse and violence against the Palestinians in order for him to possibly, uh, uh, improve his political standing as you know, two, uh, two days prior to the assault on a lot saw, uh, compound area, the, uh, uh, Israeli president, uh, assigned the responsibility to form a new government, uh, to the, uh, other political party since Netanyahu who failed to form a government and Netanyahu is facing, uh, two massive corruption cases. And he's been delaying this for some time under the, under the, uh, understanding that he has immunity, as long as he's serving in a prime minister position. I'm saying this because he miscalculated, he thought it would be business as usual. We will, uh, uh, swing our muscles, but the police harass the paddle, splenium sharpen the, uh, support to the settlers. And this will actually get his political, uh, uh, fortunes to be higher
Speaker 0 00:45:22 As he had done many times before in the past, not only him, but
Speaker 1 00:45:25 Also your hood barrage, others. It's again, uh, as we know, you flex your muscle on the Palestinians and you'll get the cheering crowd, right. Racism works. And we also could see it worse in many places. What was interesting is that this occurred during the month of Ramadan, where usually as you know, people spend most of their time in reading the court and in attending the mosque. And in particular in Jerusalem, people spend their time in a lot, some us almost 24 seven. You have people that do at the CAF, many of the general Salom families, as well as families from 48, they usually come and break their fast in Ramadan in the courtyards, as you will have these what you call communal if doors that too complex. So for the Palestinians, while the national identity is there, you cannot speak of Palestinian national identity without the sacred, without Jerusalem, without a lot.
Speaker 1 00:46:32 So mosque and it's again, Palestinians response to the Israeli assault is that yes, we are weakened by the occupation. Yes, we might not have all the abilities of freedom of movement and, uh, uh, the amenities to live as other people around the world. And you might have the gun to our chest and our head, but our relationship to the sacred is literally a red line that separates our relationship temper relationship to Zionism and Israel, to our relationship to God. And therefore people's response was commensurate to their imagine the relationship of the sacred because they see themselves, right? The, the Kaaba is you is set as to be the house of God, but also the Palestinians as it relates to a Luxem, as they see themselves as the people of God sitting and protecting and preserving the sacred and the gate of the divine, the gate to the heavens between the earth and Evans, and they see themselves as upholding that relationship. And when they Israeli army attempted to disrupt this, that imaginary trust transformed into immediate response of people. And that's what you witness in terms of that imaginary that is always there, right. Uh, being activated. Uh, and I don't think there is a return back to the pre, uh, period relative to what the Palestinians are experiencing today.
Speaker 0 00:48:14 That's really a fascinating answer, really providing a good overview of political theology, undergirding the Palestinian worldview, if you will, uh, that this rule that, uh, when we talk about Palestinians, obviously we're not talking only about Muslims. We're talking about Muslims and Christians, uh, as well. Um, so Dr. Hatton, maybe, uh, as we are getting closer to ending our podcast, maybe I can ask you this final question, and that is how is Islamic Palestine to be preserved for future generations? What is our collective obligation toward it today?
Speaker 1 00:48:52 Well, uh, in terms of preserving, uh, Muslim, Palestine, I do think it begins with Jerusalem. It begins with an <inaudible> mosque. It begins with the understanding, the, both the sacred significance, uh, of this location, but also thinking of the cost Oracle historical continuity is in there. Uh, you know, for example, many, uh, read, uh, <inaudible> with Dean in part in Jerusalem when he spent his time in there, then spent sometimes in meditations in Damascus. So you cannot read that literature without looking at their, uh, at the centrality and, uh, uh, the history of this place. So part of it is preserving that relationship, uh, for Muslims to actually also think of the massive, uh, footprint of sacredness that is infused throughout the lens. And I think for those who do research, and again, speaking to individuals who are interested in research and work, uh, uh, researching all the sacredness that are there, there's often a propensity for much of the focus on Palestine is only to think of trying to locate the biblical text and important as it is in terms of reading and thinking.
Speaker 1 00:50:17 But there is a much richer as well as continuous historical linkages in there, uh, that are infused with almost 1400 years of actual detailed history that needs to be navigated. So for those who are engaged in work and research to think about those component, uh, and every part of it could be subject to investigation. Uh, another area that I'm also interested is, is the, the area of, uh, research documenting and, uh, reviving the whole infrastructure of our path that is there, uh, both from the early period, the Altman period, but also new, all of that needs to be set. I, uh, for example, individuals who, uh, are in the business of digitizing manuscripts, uh, since Palestinian, uh, uh, often have been subject to massive violation of their, uh, academic and intellectual capacity to the level of stealing their own books. So preserving our routine material, uh, digitizing this and making those collections as part of the way to engage with, uh, uh, Muslim Palestine is very important for us to do so, and, uh, really engage with the last, I would say I do encourage Muslims to visit Palestine, to express solidarity, as well as relating to Palestinians, but this should not be done under the whole rubric of normalization and trying to think of Palestine and Palestinians through Zionist lens.
Speaker 1 00:51:56 So if you were thinking about, let me take a trip, uh, and go hand in hand with, uh, my Zionist colleagues, uh, this, I would say from Palestinian is a non-starter because you're violating their call, uh, for centering Palestine and Palestinian, especially as we are experiencing a period of intense apartheid and intense human right violations. But if you want to visit to visit and experience Palestine through Palestinian eyes, spend time with Palestinians, uh, spend time in Palestinian facilities, hotels, and people to take you to actually tour, to fuse yourself with what does it mean to actually look at Palestine through Palestinian Muslim, as well as Christian eyes. And I would say increasingly some of our, uh, Jewish allies that want to pursue a decolonized vision, uh, of Palestine and their relationship with the Palestinians. So that's what for me, what I would recommend as well.
Speaker 0 00:52:56 Thanks. So to be more specific and maybe to conclude them this, what are the areas or the place is not to be missed? If one is to go and do exactly what you just said. Obviously people are going to go to the Alexa dome of the rock, the obvious, right. But what are some of the other sacred places that you think anyone who wants to learn about the Palestinians and especially mostly more Islamic, Palestine needs to, well, you for
Speaker 1 00:53:26 Sure have to visit <inaudible>, uh, four people know it in English as Hebron, which is a problem in terms of terminology itself <inaudible>, which is the site of the burial of the prophet, Deborah Abraham, and his family. It is also the location of the oldest continuously managed walk in Islamic history, uh, because this isn't endowment, this is the endowment that was set up by the prophet to Tamim bin, Elsa dairy and the Palestinians. And, uh, they still run one of the oldest soup kitchens possibly, I would say, in the world. So when you visit in there, you actually are, uh, served a soup, uh, from the endowment that has been continuously in existence in there. So you could do actually to visit there, to visit some of the sites in Nablus, uh, as well. It has, uh, profits. Uh, there are attributions that is the profit use of Allah is that I'm grave the Jordan valley.
Speaker 1 00:54:27 Uh, also there is a number of religious sites and sacred sites in there that you actually could visit. And then, uh, I would also recommend for people to visit the Christian side because for us also, Jesus is a, uh, is, is a prophet of Islam. So the church of the holy sup liquor to visit Bethlehem to do, uh, the, the Nazareth, uh, all those places for individuals who are interested also in the crusaders on Salah Dean's history, uh, you could also visit some of the Crusader castles. Uh, that's both straddle the, uh, border on Jordan side and Palestine as well as in the north, but also going to the areas on the coastal areas where some of the endowments from the time of the, uh, uh, UBIT dynasty into the Artman dynasty, there also present visiting the city of ACA, uh, which actually, uh, uh, defeated Napoleon for those who will study in Napoleon genius, uh, that Palestinians defeated Napoleon.
Speaker 1 00:55:26 And he had to trail back to Egypt. And then, uh, the British confronted them right there at the coast of Alexandria in Egypt. So that's also a site, a site of resistance, and not only in relations to Napoleon, but also in relations to the early periods of the British and Zionism as well. So there is many of these locations. Then if you go down to <inaudible>, that's the is known as the Hashim, which is the grandfather of the prophesies that is buried in Raza. And it's been old, a historical site of trade, uh, as a point of departure to link to north Africa, as well as the coast to go up to Europe for the trade that was coming through the red sea or through the Indian ocean. So all these are, again, if there's such a rich history, uh, uh, and then I recommend for people to visit the oldest olive tree in the world, which is approximately 6,500 years old. Uh, so there's places to live and to go and visit in that way as well,
Speaker 0 00:56:27 While you're making me wanting to go right now, if only the conditions, uh, in Sharla allow and permit all of us to go and visit very, very soon. Uh, thank you so much. Uh, I've been talking to Dr. Hatton Bosnian of the university of California, Berkeley and Zaytuna college on mostly in Palestine for Islam on the address channel of the Medan podcast at George Mason university. Thank you so much, Dr. Bosnia. Well, thank you for having the pleasure.
