Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:07 Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:00:07 This is joy and reflection among the Muslims around the world. It is also an occasion for the not even water question to which there is an easy answer, not even water Muslims who observed fasting that I'm a down to abstain from food drinks and sexual intercourse from early Dawn to sunset. Needless to say this usually means it's absolutely needed to be said. They can engage in such activities between sunset and Dawn Salaam-Alaikum greetings and welcome to episode two of the Islam on the edge of the channel of the Medan podcast, a production of Medan and online publication of the alley, where I'll act center for global Islamic studies at George Mason university. My name is <inaudible>. I am curator and host of Islam on the edges. There is much more to drama than though, then simple acts of abstaining from food drink and sex families gather community is prayed together.
Speaker 1 00:01:06 The sound of the Chronicle citations fills the air, the aromas of then delicacies tempt us in anticipation of the fr break of the fast meal. They water, sweets, prayers, food, laughter reflection, more prayers, the Koran, more food and drinks. It's all part of it. I'm a down lower it's a season like no other children enjoy it. I'm add-on they try to imitate the adults by fasting parts of the day. They Gorge and Ramadan delicacies fall asleep during the prayers cry. If there are not the wakened for the pre don't set whole meal and wait in anticipation of the aid gifts after Amazon is over, it is also refreshing to see a community coming together to celebrate lack of consumption in the world in which there is rampant consumerism, unbridled, capitalism, environmental degradation overindulgence, and over saturation in just about anything, at least in the more affluent societies, it is an act of redemption to be involved in such a profound spiritual act of devotion, like fasting at the same time, Muslims live in the world.
Speaker 1 00:02:21 So they are affected by dimensioned, spiritually eroding activities, but at least for a month, we try to remind ourselves and the world that another way of living is possible. And that at the deepest levels, humans are defined not by what we consume, but what we believe in this episode is called Ramadan on the edges. I interviewed four scholars and activists in four different countries on four continents in North America. I speak with Dr. Nissan Mohammed assistant Dean for religious life at Howard university in Washington, DC on the European continent. My guest is Dr. Ahmed, Alabama, and associate professor at the faculty of Islamic studies, university of Sarajevo in Bosnia and Herzegovina. We will then move to Africa where my interlocutor is the Sam Hamad, a lawyer and independent researcher in Cape town, South Africa. Finally, I talk to Lee and <inaudible> from Indonesia. She is currently a PhD student at the university of Chicago's divinity school. I hope you will enjoy the episode and learn so much about the Muslim practices of Ramadan on four. Our first guest is Dr. Nissan Mohammed. She is assistant Dean for religious life at Howard university in Washington, DC. Welcome Dr. Nissa.
Speaker 2 00:03:56 Yeah, absolutely. Lakeland Ramadan, the bark to your guests. Thank you so much for having me
Speaker 1 00:04:01 <inaudible> to you and to everyone else. Uh, it is our pleasure to have you with us. Uh, so, uh, can you, uh, tell us a little bit about, uh, African-American Muslim community and the observance of Ramadan, what kind of cultural practices, how it is observed in, in, in African-American Muslim community and what would you like people to know about the observance of Ramadan?
Speaker 2 00:04:29 So what I've done is a very special time, of course, for all Muslims and for African-American Muslims, it's a very special and joyous time as well. And you'll see a variety of different expressions of joy and beauty during this month. So families, of course, some families decorate their homes, you'll see signs or signs or things on the front of their door that says Ronald McDonald Barak, because a lot of times people have children. And so they want to pass down the culture of what Ramadan is all about to their children. And so they decorate their homes. There are big sides, they have lights up. And so they just have amazing opportunities to share really the beauty of what Ramadan is all about. And the big things happened with the EAD, you know, which is also another joyous event. And so African-American families get together prior to COVID, you know, people had, if at their homes they would visit different people's homes to break best. And it's just an amazing experience.
Speaker 1 00:05:27 Yeah. Um, uh, food obviously is a big part, even though we abstain from food and drink during the day and the evening, we like to prepare a little bit more special meals in the Ramadan. So what are the kinds of meals that you would find, um, in, in African-American Muslim community during Ramadan?
Speaker 2 00:05:45 So of course food is a major thing and African-Americans of course, love to cook and we have our own unique culture. So you'll find one of the main staples and a lot of African-American males you'll find bean pie. Being pie is a unique dish that is, um, attributed significantly to African American Muslims that started with the nation of Islam and has been spread throughout all other African-American Muslim communities. And it's just a wonderful, wonderful staple that people eat for. So who are the star? It's just a great thing to experience, you know, from fish to chicken, to macaroni and cheese, to lamb, it's just a variety of different meals that people experience.
Speaker 1 00:06:25 Yeah. And, um, when you mentioned the, uh, the bean pies, uh, my first time I came across, it was, I believe Ben's chili bowl in the NDC. They sell it to the counter. I remember it's a, it's an institution in Washington, you know, and that first time I went there, I saw them being sold on the counter. I didn't know the historical significance of it. I learned about it later on. So, so glad that you bring it up. Um, and, and now you can actually find, I think in, in leather Muslim's stores, they'll be selling those at the, you know, near the cashier. They will have some of the bean pies, I think, especially in the DC area. Right?
Speaker 2 00:07:04 Absolutely. In the DC area where we have a wide variety of black Muslims, you can find me in fives just about anywhere.
Speaker 1 00:07:11 Yeah. Um, so what are some of the main, the religious, the emotional practices, uh, within the, uh, African-American lesbian community during the time of that and how is it observed religiously? Um, what are the kinds of practices? How both men and women and children partake in all those observances, if you will.
Speaker 2 00:07:33 So of course, you know, there's the father prayer, you know, families get up for so whore before, before the Dawn and they experienced budget, prayer together as well. And then just like other Muslims, they do the five daily it's a lot. And then the top, we have prayer at night. And so a lot of times families all go together. This is pre COVID, you know, to tell we have prayers together now that everything is online, it's an opportunity for families to spend a lot more time together, growing spiritually, reading the Koran together and having an opportunity to spend more family time, because a lot of families, of course, are not going out to the masjid or Islamic centers and are really spending more time at home, growing together as a family.
Speaker 1 00:08:13 Yeah. And, um, one thing that I'm learning more about is the central role that women play during the month of Ramadan, obviously being the pillars of families from cooking, which is sometimes shared with their spouses, but oftentimes it is women who do most of this, um, to other devotional practices who citation of the Koran and other things are, can you maybe tell us a little bit more about how it is in your community?
Speaker 2 00:08:41 So all of those, all of those things and above, so women are very, very significant in terms of definitely the cooking. Sometimes the cooking begins in the morning and the women are cooking for the breaking of the fast all day. And it's a joyous, it's a joyous event to beat the children, to be able to feed the family and women take a great pleasure in being able to cook these amazing meals for their families.
Speaker 1 00:09:04 Yeah. Um, and, um, another thing that I wanted to ask you about is you obviously work at a university as assistant Dean for religious life, and you coordinate activities for Muslim students on campus. I know that things have changed since COVID, but prior to COVID, what are some of the main things that you do with students, especially during the month of Ramadan and how is it observed in higher education?
Speaker 2 00:09:30 So it's, uh, it's an amazing time. Typically, since I've been at Howard university, Ramadan has been during the summer and students were not on campus, but we would always have an if tar our office of the Dean of the chapel, which is the opposite of which I worked under, always sponsored. And if tar and we would invite students and faculty all around the university to come and break back with the Muslims, and it's a very joyous experience. It goes for a lot of people, they learn about Islam at our <inaudible>. They learn about Islam from the food. They learn about Islam from the different speakers. We have to connect the students with the faculty and staff and other community people. So it's also an opportunity to do Dawa. People don't know what Islam is, but they hear there's an internal on campus. There's going to be some good food. Let's go hang out with the Muslims. And so it's an opportunity for us to really share the beauty of what Islam is all about.
Speaker 1 00:10:18 Yes. And, um, one thing that I think many of us are still learning more about is the central plays that African-American Muslims occupy in the larger, you know, tapestry of, of, uh, of American Islam in general. Uh, you cannot talk about Islam in the United States today without mentioning Mohammed Ali, Malcolm X, Elijah Mohammed. I mean, that will do that many, many other people who have contributed greatly not only to Islam in the United States, but are known globally and contributed globally intellectually in terms of activism as powerful symbols for justice and sung. Can you maybe reflect on that a little bit, especially as we are in the Ramadan?
Speaker 2 00:11:05 So that's an amazing statement that you've said because typically black Muslims have that historic and extravagant history of social activism of justice, of all of the people that you named. But typically when you look on what the media and they show reflections and pictures of Ramadan, you don't see black Muslims. And so in 2016 of a young black Muslim said, you know what? I'm tired of being invisible in the world of what's going to Ramadan and started something called blackout eat. So that it's an opportunity for black Muslims to share pictures of themselves during Ramadan and especially during the eat. And so if you look into a hashtag look up that hashtag blackout eat, you will see amazing pictures of African-American families showing the beauty of Ramadan as they experienced it from the EAD to Ramadan cooking to their children, to the people get dressed up for these pitchers. It's like a photo shoot exhibit, but it's a wonderful opportunity to show exactly what you're talking about. That kind of history that black Muslims have that is often invisible from the media in terms of when they talk about Ramadan, they're not showing what's going on with black Muslims.
Speaker 1 00:12:14 Yeah. So, so what do you think that we could do collectively to highlight, because this is a major part of our Muslim community in the United States, but like you said, often missing in, in, in public representations. So what can we do collectively to, to, to remedy this?
Speaker 2 00:12:34 So I think, you know, the OMA has a responsibility to see black Muslims as valuable parts of our community in a master that I go to prior to COVID for it tar, they would always have like an African-American night where the food, the food typically was South Asian food every other night, but a couple of nights about Ramadan because they had stars every night, they would have African-American food. And it would just be a celebratory event because it was a mixed master community of a little bit of everybody. And everybody wants to feel a part of what's going on. And if you only have one certain kind of boot, if you only have one certain kind of person giving the, you know, Juma could for all the time, people are going to feel excluded and not feel like they are a part of what's going on. So when it's, African-American not used to all the African-American Muslims, bringing food, donating food, helping to serve, because they feel a part of this master community. And it's just a wonderful example of how you can make people feel a part of what's going on in a very simple way, by just including them in the, in the menu,
Speaker 1 00:13:35 Including them in the menu. So that would be a start, right. But then that right.
Speaker 2 00:13:40 No, should absolutely not stop it. That people have to see that black Muslims are valuable, you know, have a African-American eman give the cookbook, you know, one Friday or a couple of Fridays, you know, that's a major concern at different universities across the country where Muslims will go four years at a university and never hear from a black man. And that gives them a subtle message that black Muslims don't have the ability or the capability to deliver the word or the knowledge exactly. To deliver the word. And that's so false. That's a false entity.
Speaker 1 00:14:16 It is. It is. I remember when, uh, you know, Mohammed, uh, <inaudible> the son of, you know, the <inaudible>. I had a conversation with him in Binghamton and he used to tell me, he said, look, people think that we, and the black Muslim community did not really study Islam or no Islam. And he says, I can tell you that's false because he said, the father, he used to it to his father, Elijah Mohammed does the father, the used to have a library of books from all over the world in all types of languages. And he used to read avidly and he sent us his sons, you know, him act by Muhammad, but it's a D and another to study, uh, Arabic to study in the Muslim world to bring back that knowledge as well, and to spread it in the community. So I think this aspect of knowledge within the African-American Muslim community, uh, is often overlooked by people who do not have an intimate understanding of what really happened in history.
Speaker 2 00:15:17 You're absolutely right. And the part of it is that it makes a, it bothers the self-esteem of young black Muslims who want to see themselves a part of what's going on. They want to hear from someone who looks like them and representation matters. And so that's one, and it's really tragic that on a lot of campuses, young black Muslims are leaving the MSA because they don't feel a part of what's going on. And so we want to be able to change that. We want to be able to make everybody feel welcome, everybody, to watch it and know that black American Muslims are knowledgeable about Islam. And there's well-studied.
Speaker 1 00:15:51 Yeah, definitely. So lifter and the staff, I know that this COVID pandemic has changed a lot. Can you maybe enlighten us a little bit about how within the African-American Muslim community, what has been the effect of COVID, especially when it comes to the observance of Ramadan?
Speaker 2 00:16:07 So one of the things that I've really noticed, and this has happened last year, of course, people are doing all kinds of online programs to read and experience the Quran. So I work with the organization called stop, yellow square, and it's an organization, the online resource about black Muslims. And every day we have a reflection from a black person on the Quran. And so we show this new on reflecting on the Koran, through poetry, through Tufts sear, through short stories. And it's an amazing experience to see that black Muslims are studied and that they can really show the beauty of the Koran. And then their opportunity is that for E people have drive-thru eat, they don't want to give up that experience at E they don't want to give up nastiness. And lots of people have decorated their cars. They go to the drive-thru, he pick up meals and they experience it like that. But also drive through his cars. There are communities where you don't have to worry about cooking. You can just drive up and pick up a meal and go. And that shows that, you know, people in the black community are really trying to take care of each other, even though we can't be together socially because of COVID, we can still experience a meal together, even if it's just a drive through.
Speaker 1 00:17:14 Well, that's amazing. Um, and finally, there's so many, so I would like for you to put your preachers hats now on and, uh, share maybe a personal reflection on that. I'm a down with us.
Speaker 2 00:17:26 So I think a personal reflection on Ramadan is just the beauty of reading the Qur'an and knowing that, uh, last talking to me, I think for a long time, I used to want to, God really talked to me. I mean, who am I, what do in Ramadan? I have the wonderful reflections of reading the Koran and hearing God talk to me and hearing a lot of speak to me through his words, in the, and understanding it and reading the same thing over and over again, and getting a different meaning and hearing a lot of say to me, the value of who I am as a Muslim and giving me guidance and direction as a Muslim. And so I think that's really just the beauty of it, you know, did a lot of personal reflection and what other little tidbits. So I have a granddaughter she's like three, and I was taking her home.
Speaker 2 00:18:09 She'd spent the weekend with me and I was taking her home on Sunday. And her home is all decorated. They have Ramadan Mubarak, they have signed them. And she says, Oh, me, we have Ramadan in my house. You don't have Ramadan at your house. I hadn't had any decorations up, but she was like, Oh, I mean, we have Ramadan in my house because she's believes, so joisting all the decorations. And you know, her mom is really celebrating and they're all excited about it. And she was just very happy to let me know we have Ramadan in my house. And so that was just a wonderful reflection that even at three, she's finding joy in Ramadan and with the expressions that her family does. And so we went round and beat. Everybody says, I need to get some decorations. I think we all do. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:18:47 That's wonderful. And I know that children just love it, I'm down. And I think it shows that when parents and communities put little effort to make the Ramadan special, that the kids really respond,
Speaker 2 00:18:59 They absolutely do. They absolutely. And we want everyone to be thinking about that, have ramen done at your house so that the children can enjoy it. And especially with Eve, you know, the gifts and the presence, you know, children really love that. And it's a wonderful experience for them.
Speaker 1 00:19:13 Absolutely. Well, thank you so much duct on the sound Mohammed, that was the only sound Mohammed, the assistant Dean for religious life at Howard university in Washington, DC. It was pleasure talking to you.
Speaker 2 00:19:24 Thank you for having me Isilon Mulligan records. A little bit of cat too.
Speaker 1 00:19:27 Well, <inaudible> our next guest is Dr. Ahmed alabaster, rich, uh, Ahmed. Welcome. Thank you for having me. Um, Dr. Hamad alabaster, she is associate professor of Islamic studies at the faculty of Islamic studies at the university of <inaudible>. He has a PhD in political science from the university of Sarajevo. He had studied Islamic studies in political sense that the international Islamic university in Malaysia, in Kuala Lumpur, he had published widely on Islam in Europe, Islam in Bosnia and Herzegovina on politics of the middle East, uh, as well as various issues in contemporary Islamic thought. And it's a pleasure to have him with us in our Islam, on the edges, uh, podcasts that Amazon issue, uh, Dr. Hammond, I would like to start by asking you a personal question about, uh, observing Ramadan in Bosnia Herzegovina. Can you tell us a bit about your memories growing up a Muslim in Bosnia, which was then part of Yugoslavia. So in Bosnia and Yugoslavia, how was it growing up as a Muslim and how was Ramadan observed back then, especially in your family?
Speaker 3 00:20:48 Yeah. Um, I have, uh, three distinct memories of, of, uh, uh, Ramadan, Ramadan timing in my, uh, youth years. Uh, one as a child in a Muslim village. Uh, second, uh, as a student at, uh, <inaudible> and third as a soldier in the Yugoslav army. So, um, let me start with the first one. Uh, I grew up in, uh, late 1970s and early eighties, um, you know, traditional Muslim family, uh, and Ramadan during those days was in summer time. Um, uh, which means that, uh, we hit the fast something like 18 plus hours, uh, while doing our field work and farm work. You know, I still remember very vividly, um, a relative, a neighbor of mine, uh, uh, an old lady, you know, uh, doing the farm work and fasting and bleeding, but she wouldn't stop, you know, so, uh, not everybody fostered obviously. Um, those were late socialist years, but many, many people did, especially ladies, uh, did fast.
Speaker 3 00:22:13 Uh, we had, uh, um, very active, very dedicated EMOM who was, uh, persecuted by the regime at that time. But he, he, I think takes credit for, uh, what of, uh, religious life, especially during Ramadan, uh, that we had in our village. Um, it was simple, uh, uh, mosque, uh, and simple mosque life, but it was especially, uh, lively during, during Ramadan thanks to this, uh, who would gather everyone, uh, for the daily prayers and do, uh, extra, uh, vicar after the prayers. We caught our heat. So it was very, very memorable, uh, time, uh, when I moved to madrasa as a high, highest cool, uh, pupil. Um, at that time, um, there was deficit of moms in, um, Muslim Gemara in congregations. So, uh, even, uh, the first class students aged 16 and 17 had to go to, uh, smaller congregations during Ramadan to lead taraweeh prayers and so on.
Speaker 3 00:23:33 Uh, and, uh, I, I spent four of add-ons like that as a, as a guest, you mom, in remote areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and those are really exactly, and those are, you know, everyone who has gone through those, uh, those experiences, those are unforgettable, you know, um, and finally, um, I had this, uh, my last, um, Yugoslav Ramadan. I spent as a soldier in the money corpse of a Yugoslav national army that was special in a different sense, you know, uh, we usually spend Ramadan in our community and, uh, we relate to community activities and community life, but that Ramadan, uh, I was so to say lone in what I was doing and, uh, being in such a godless, I would say environment, uh, augmented all that Ramadan means to, to, to, to a believer. So that was a, that was a special experience of its own. Yeah. So those would be my three distinct, very distinct memories from add-on in Yugoslavia. Uh, let me just conclude by saying that, um, those were years of, um, nursing, um, and religious revival, and those were, uh, although we probably were not, um, uh, conscious of that fact, but those were nice times to be a young, young, Muslim.
Speaker 1 00:25:17 Yeah. That's, that's very interesting. And, um, uh, especially I'm interested in something you said, you said, uh, not everybody fasted, but many did, especially ladies. Can you elaborate on that?
Speaker 3 00:25:32 Um, you see, um, the socialist regime of Yugoslavia obviously did its best to, um, um, you know, integrate as many people as possible into its own organizations and activities and so on and so forth. Uh, it was much easier to do with working class in rural areas when it came to rural areas, uh, people were peasants were much more independence from the regime than working class, but even there, uh, you know, uh, the men in the family, they had to go along, they often worked in factories and so on. So they had to keep a clear of the mosques and religious life and so on if they wanted to prosper, uh, in the, in the society, however, uh, ladies, uh, were left alone. So they kind of took care of religious lives and, uh, raising children religiously and so on. So they were really the pillars of, uh, religious Islamic life and identity at that time.
Speaker 1 00:26:46 Yeah. I'm so glad you're highlighting that because I think that has been experienced with many of us who grew up during that time, even if we didn't grow up in a very practicing very pious families, it was usually the mothers that kept whatever was left of Islamic practices in our families. Um, and I don't personally, Mike is, that was definitely true, you know? Um, so I'm really glad that you highlighted that. So last now fast forward to the present time, if we, if, if you will, uh, what are some of the main practices in Boston today during the month of Ramadan?
Speaker 3 00:27:21 Yeah, I understand by today, um, pre pandemic times, uh, we'll, we'll come to the present to last year and this year, um, at, uh, at the private, uh, if I may say private and community levels, uh, at the private level at Amazon is a time for family gatherings, uh, especially if you know, families and friends come together, uh, and then they, they, um, break their fast together. And it's, it's a great time for, for everyone, um, kids, especially remember those, those, those moments, um, however much more is going on at the community level. Um, the, the mosque life intensifies, obviously, uh, the, uh, Boston Muslims are not, um, known for, you know, praying five daily prayers in the mosque, uh, frequently, but, uh, during Ramadan that, that changes a lot, quite a lot, especially with the, the Aisha prayer, which is attended, attended usually in great numbers by, uh, Yangon Knowles and kids and everyone.
Speaker 3 00:28:40 Yes, yes, exactly. And, um, there is also, uh, in many mosques, um, uh, something called, uh, Cabella, which is the citation of the Koran by usually people who memorize could own owned by, by heart. Uh, sometimes, uh, often just male, but occasionally there are separate Cabelas for ladies as well. Uh, so, uh, those are usually done after a solitaire, but sometimes they are done after, or even a morning prayer prayer, um, in the morning and in the afternoon as well in the afternoon. Yes. Um, I remember in the, the us lifetimes, these, these, uh, if you like, um, seven months, seven months were, were conducted only in few major mosques, uh, throughout Bosnia. And there were not enough for, to do it by, you know, reading Chrome from memory, uh, and, uh, during Ramadan, many of those people had to come from what is today Northern Macedonia, which was part of Yugoslavia at that time, but they'll handle a lot today in Bosnia.
Speaker 3 00:29:57 There are some 500 proposals out every third, almost every third is, is, uh, a lady or a girl. Uh, so there are many of those being done, uh, today in Bosnia, of course there are many, uh, Wiles, uh, or preaching, uh, occasions, uh, both onsite and online and, uh, everything peaks did the mosque life peaks on the 27th night of Ramadan, which in Bosnia is often called Layla to cover, you know, um, w we, we all the time here, uh, headaches, uh, that we don't know when the lady is, but in Bosnia, we know it's on the 27th of, uh, Ramadan somehow. Uh, of course, uh, Ramadan is time of giving and charitable activities. So many of that goes, uh, uh, goes on and, uh, as well as some of the more, I would say, uh, mundane things like having them in our, at candles and kind of Nate, would you say Canaanites, these gun shots,
Speaker 1 00:31:06 The cannons that's that signal and of the, of the, of the
Speaker 3 00:31:11 Yes, every day. And, um, that's from a nearby Hill or somewhere that's also, uh, you know, becoming like a landmark of, of, of an Auburn on its own. So, uh, when it comes to Bosnia, people say that, uh, Ramadan is especially in Sarajevo itself more than in any other place, especially during summer time when you can do your prayers outside as well, uh, on the sofas and, and in the courtyards of the mosques, um, uh, there years ago, um, there were many, um, activities for youth, including, uh, you know, these after we, uh, both party, uh, post party. So to say I've been getting headaches and teas and coffees, unfortunately, because of migration, uh, to, to, to Western Europe and, um, you know, the population, uh, there are less and less young people in Bosnian villages and less and less of those, those events.
Speaker 1 00:32:20 Yeah. Thank you. Um, that's, that's very interesting. Very good answer to the question, but you mentioned at the beginning about comedy, so, so what you just described is a pre COVID practice. How is Ramadan observed now when we have the COVID pandemic, it become, um,
Speaker 3 00:32:41 A fully family affair. So to say, you know, um, in many, not in all of Bosnia, but in many parts of Bosnia, we have a curfew at the moment from 9:00 PM onwards. So many mosques are closed. There are no, uh, prayers. Uh, so there are no gatherings, gatherings are not allowed. So, uh, it it's become very family, uh, uh, event. And, uh, myself, I enjoy it a lot because I have quite a large family, but, uh, it's been tough, mentally tough, um, on, uh, people who are alone who have no, nobody around them. So it's been a challenging, challenging time.
Speaker 1 00:33:30 Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:33:32 Of course. Sorry, if I may just add a lot, has moved to some of the activities have moved online. So instead of, um, you know, lectures in the mosque and the visiting lectures, you have a lot of those going online, either on internet or various media outlets. And there are so many nowadays, uh, so even, uh, the citation of the Koran people follow online, uh, you know, reciters do it in the mosque, but then there are, there are, um, recordings and there are, uh, transmit, live, live, uh, transmissions, uh, but obviously not everything can be done online and, uh, people are missing the, the, the personal touch to it.
Speaker 1 00:34:18 Well, the social aspect of it, uh, in most places around the world nowadays, um, and maybe this is a good place to conclude maybe by sharing, if you, if you would like to some personal reflections on the Ramadan. Uh, is there anything that you would like your listeners to know based on a personal reflections, um, anything related to Bosnia that you would like them to know, and especially when it comes to Ramadan?
Speaker 3 00:34:46 Um, yeah. Thank you for the opportunity. Um, we, we have a lot of time to reflect during Ramadan, and that's what we are, I think, expected to do, not just do the form of prayers, readings of the Koran and so on. It all should be also connected to the reflection, deep reflection of what is going on around us. Um, and, uh, personally, uh, as this year, I think what comes often to my mind is that, uh, this acknowledgement, um, that, uh, as we who have, um, abundant food and water, we who desist from those basic human needs, because we, we obey God's command. Uh, we also have to, uh, reflect on the fact that, uh, last year and this year, uh, have hit, um, some members of our community both locally and globally, much harder than the rest of us, you know, and I think this is the time to show our piousness of our righteousness through extending our helping hand to them.
Speaker 3 00:35:55 Um, there will be times for other things in our community. There will be times for me not, I don't know what I'm not. Uh, I think that we have to be, to, to be especially sensitive to those members of our community who have lost jobs who have lost their loved ones. Uh, some of them needs, uh, need us financially. Others need us, others, elders need our services. Uh, and some other people need just our kind more than mental support. So I think those, those members of our community and our society should be the priority, this, this phenomenon. And this is I think what, uh, I'm, uh, personally I I'm trying to, to find ways to, to do. Yeah. Uh, of course we do pray to the almighty that, uh, by the next Ramadan latest, you shall love you go back to the normal, I mean, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 00:36:54 Uh, thank you for sharing these personal reflections and your memories with us and for, uh, for telling us about that. I'm add-on in Bosnia. That was Dr. <inaudible> associate professor at the faculty of Islamic studies in Sarajevo. We were discussing the Ramadan Bosnia. Thank you. Thank you. Our next guest is if the summer met, she is a lawyer, independent researcher from Cape town, South Africa, and she's also a co-founder and managing editor of <inaudible> and online platform showcasing content by Muslims, welcoming to sound, uh, if the sun is joining us from Cape town, uh, so we do have a little bit of a time difference, but it's going to work out hopefully for the good. So, um, if this, uh, can you tell us a little bit about your memories growing up Muslim in South Africa and how was Ramadan observed back then, especially in your family? Sure.
Speaker 4 00:37:52 So, I mean, to me, so much of my story and my experience of Ramadan is particularly in tech town. And it's worthwhile saying that the experience of Muslims in Cape town differs quite significant day from the experience of Muslims elsewhere in the country. And a lot of that has to do with the history of the Muslims who first arrived in Cape town. Uh, this is over 500 years ago, slaves from Indonesia. Uh, and in that way, the sort of flavor of the way some is practiced in Cape town is very different to other parts of the country, um, where people came much later. So we're thinking two years ago, mostly from the Indian sub-continent. Um, so for me, I've grown up very much, uh, sort of between two kinds of worlds in, uh, in South Africa. Uh, I, my father is of Indian descent and my mother's of cake Malay descent, uh, and growing up in Cape town, uh, Ramadan was always a very joyous time, uh, something to look forward to something that even as kids, we knew the significance of it somehow.
Speaker 4 00:39:10 Um, interestingly though, I think it is worth saying that, I mean, I, I grew up post depart date night, so I'm one of the born freeze. So South Africa, and that was born, uh, into democracy, uh, into a free society. Um, and for us, it was for, for me growing up at school and around people knew what Ramadan was, you know, like I have very vivid memories of like my first couple of fasts, uh, you know, on the playground and my friends being like, you know, I don't want to eat in front of you, you know, and, and how's the fast going, uh, never something that, you know, never mocked or ridiculed or poked fun at in any way. And that's something that's quite unique. I've learned, uh, that lots of Muslims in other we're living in non Muslim countries, uh, don't necessarily experience that, this kind of positive reaction and curiosity about what it is that you're doing.
Speaker 4 00:40:06 Um, and I think it's, it's something, like I said, it's unique to South Africa, but I think even more extraordinary given just the diverse makeup of people in this country. Uh, so you know, that those are some of my very early memories and, you know, with regards to my family, uh, of course food is a big thing as it is everywhere. Uh, all the particular, if dad cheats and special foods that come out in Ramadan, uh, and the highlight was really taking cakes away to neighbors. So this is a very old tradition. Um, and because of the history of a partake people always, you know, because of living, you know, along racial lines and that kind of division, um, Muslim neighborhoods where, you know, Muslim neighborhoods, there'll be various communities within Cape town where the entire streets and many students surrounding you would be Muslim. And, you know, yeah, it comes as tradition of taking a plate of whatever you've prepared for your third table and swapping with a neighbor and you end up having like seven different dishes, uh, to break fast with. And, you know, that was really one of the, you know, the highlights for me growing up that tradition is slowly dying. I have to say. And I think that's to do with, of course, people moving out of these very, uh, you know, segregated communities that are still a legacy of apartheid. Uh, but that was always huge, fun and tremendous, and like super exciting, you know, taking all the kids going in and swapping plates.
Speaker 1 00:41:39 Yeah. So what is your favorite dish growing up?
Speaker 4 00:41:44 So again, because of the, there are a number of influences Calendly influences in South Africa with its like mix of different kinds of people. So of course somebody says, Oh, the standard, the sub-continent, you know, triangles with delicious fillings inside. So that's a favorite of mine. Um, but there's another kind of more Cape Millie tradition, which are basically crepes. So very thin capes, but inside is a kind of cinnamon coconut sugary filling. And that's like, uh, a Cape town classic and it's, it's perfect. And it's great. And I'm craving one right now, as we speaking,
Speaker 1 00:42:23 I know when I was in Malaysia, I used to eat something similar. They would make crepes a green color. I think they would put green coloring and then they would put coconut and sugar, I think Pam sugar and everything else inside. And it is absolutely delicious. I agree. Great. Um, so can you tell us a little bit about some of the main practices among the South African Muslims today during the month of Ramadan? And when I say today, I mean, pre COVID, you know, during normal times, what are some of the religious and other practices of South Africa?
Speaker 4 00:42:57 Sure. So for South African Muslims, this is, you know, something that I also, you know, I've always perceived it as being very normal, um, until, you know, traveling elsewhere, it's actually a time of retreat in some ways. So people are very social when it comes to the <inaudible> and breaking the fast, but, you know, come Aisha time, people start going to the mosque doing Tarawa and it's a very quiet kind of atmosphere. Uh, you know, obviously many other countries, you know, there's a lot of socializing, you know, into the early hours of the morning that doesn't really happen here. People, uh, you know, they'll do socializing or not if after, and it's quite a, you know, normal thing to go to the muscle <inaudible> and it's 20 records and the whole Quran is excited, um, throughout that month, which again, shocked me because I thought that was done everywhere, um, until I spent, you know, Ramadan in, in other countries.
Speaker 4 00:43:51 And, and so that it is quite different. Uh, but it is very much a time of, I think, going into it and, you know, South African Muslims are quite joyful when it comes to many of the other, uh, religious celebrations, like molded and things like that. But somehow Ramadan daily takes on a very different flavor and, you know, growing up as well, you know, you know, there's like no TV and no movies and no music. Um, and you know, it being very much a break with your, you know, daily routine and, and, and all the other kinds of entertainment and things you're involved in, uh, which is, you know, so different to places where you many series in production and movies in production good for this month. Uh, so in that way, there's, it's, it's, I think to me it's a good balance, you know, you see people, you feed people, you interact, you share food. Um, but it is also a time of deeply spiritual reflection and inward nourishment.
Speaker 1 00:44:52 Yeah. So, um, so obviously COVID has changed a lot all around the world. So how has general situation in Cape town right now with COVID and how is that impacting the Ramadan practices?
Speaker 4 00:45:04 So at the moment, uh, we are on our version, we call it level one. So there are not too many restrictions. Mosques are open, we're allowed 250 people in a mosque. We can go to each other's houses and do sort of minimal socializing. Uh, last year was very different. Last year was the strict lockdown. Everything was closed. You could only, you know, get your essentials. Um, and that was difficult. That was difficult in some ways, but then also easy and others. And in speaking to, you know, friends and family and asking them, you know, particularly based off of last year's drama down how they felt, uh, because of the sort of, you know, retreat and, and moving into an inward space that we usually take on in the month. The transition from that hard lockdown into Ramadan was actually quite a pleasant one. And so many people I've spoken to myself included like last year's Ramadan was incredible because there was already that pace of Sonus and being away from a lot of distractions and other things, and being in your home and sort of, you know, being very low key and, and sort of quiet.
Speaker 4 00:46:12 Um, right now it feels more or less like a normal Ramadan this year. Um, of course, you know, there are some restrictions, uh, but you know, we're still, people are able to go to the muscles that are weak and, and that, you know, like I said, it's, it's something, you know, men and women are, you know, do and practice, um, every, every Ramadan.
Speaker 1 00:46:34 Yeah. So, um, when you mentioned earlier about reciting the whole co and, and that, that our we prayers, um, do you have other, um, you know, ways of reciting the Koran in the mosque Andromeda? And I was talking with, you know, with professor Alibaba bridge from Bosnia and in Bosnia, they have a practice where after the, uh, the federal morning prayer, or after the onset of prayer, they would recite one Jews, you know, one 30th of the, um, or half of it. Uh, and <inaudible>, they will, they will keep it shorter. So is there something like that, um, in Cape town or in South Africa, or is it purely that the, the queer anthracite that entails?
Speaker 4 00:47:17 So mainly it is the cramping, the sighted into railway, but based on different masks, um, people would do maybe half a juice before Margaret, um, and then at another half juice after, after the budget bit, but that's in addition to, you know, the whole Quran being excited in the month, um, there also, uh, like a number of Kira competitions that happened in this month. So there'll be like an entire day where, you know, kind of upcoming your sizes of the crown will be judged and they'll do this. It's also, uh, a great time for people, you know, to celebrate younger, you know, children who have just completed memorization. Uh, they tend to be, you know, some like little events and celebrations around that. Um, the other very big and common practices, you know, the NYSCI posted away. So based on what was your sighted in that night, the mom or somebody will give a short little explanation of a particular aspect of particular Ayat of Qur'an, um, and people, you know, uh, like they love that, you know, that's, that's really a thing. People do stay until the end and engage in and want to listen. Uh, because of course, most, most of the Africans don't understand Arabic. So it's, you know, it's always something to look forward to sort of put together what has been decided, um, for this, for that night.
Speaker 1 00:48:39 Yeah. It makes me wish I could, I could be in Cape town now and, and partake in all in all of that. Um, you mentioned earlier that both men and women go to mosque is what they're away, and that is a practice, most places, almost everywhere in the world, I think. Um, but can you maybe highlight some of the practices that are uniquely related to how women experienced Ramadan in your community?
Speaker 4 00:49:02 Sure. So I think, you know, like every way, so much of the conversation on women and Ramadan is around feeding people that not just families, but, you know, cooking extra for, uh, people who, you know, living in poverty in South Africa, there are a number of people, you know, living in, in huge and up to poverty. Um, you know, and, uh, there are many sort of groups and, and neighborhoods of women that would come together and cook a pot of food and it would be distributed for that day. Uh, so it's almost that the sense and the, the importance and significance of feeding people is heightened in Ramadan. And that's something that people, uh, that, that women partake in, um, in, in quite a profound way. But the other thing that also takes place is in a number of mosques, or even in just homes, there'll be like once a week where, you know, women will gather maybe just Cron and then, you know, one of the women will give like a kind of dust afterwards. Um, and, you know, that's the kind of, it's like the women's day, you know? So like the Moscow coast, the way I live Tuesdays, the women's day. So we will have like something like 600 women, this is pre COVID would gather in the mosque on a Tuesday morning, you know, and they'd have the space to do what they do and have their program on, on that day. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:50:21 Yeah. That's wonderful. Uh, I think that Albert, she also mentioned in Bosnia, they have in mosque, uh, they have this practice called macabre, which is re resuscitation of the, uh, during the day. And in some Musk, there are these more couples that are just for women, there'll be a female reciters of the on and only women coming there to listen. So it seems like there is, there is some similarity there too. Um, finally, if this, um, maybe if you could share with us some brief personal reflection that Armada.
Speaker 4 00:50:52 Sure. So, I mean, for me, you know, it always feels like this month creeps up on you. Like every year you somehow think, Oh, you know, I'm going to be prepared. And I, you know, going to have all my things in order and a real program, and suddenly it's like, Oh, in two days time, it's done. We're done. Um, but I think whenever it does come, it always feels like it's just at the perfect time, because, you know, to me, it's the break with the usual work routine, the usual family routine, the usual social routine. And there's something that changes, uh, in, in this time. And to me, it almost, it like, it just, it shifts something in you and sometimes it's hard and you've got to like super adjust to the new pace. Uh, but for me, I find it it's just such a necessary thing.
Speaker 4 00:51:39 And I think that particularly in COVID and thinking about the state that, you know, the world was in last year, this time, um, it was such an anchor. And to me, Ramadan is that that, you know, no matter what is going on in the world and how, you know, disasters, it may seem Ramadan, Ramadan, you know, like, like the seller is the seller. It will be an anchor, even if there's complete chaos and uncertainty throughout all of that, you have this anchor and you have this grounding. Um, and, and to me, that's one of the most extraordinary benefits of this month.
Speaker 1 00:52:14 Thank you for sharing that personal reflection. Uh, I was talking to at the time I had a lawyer, independent researcher based in Cape town, South Africa. Thank you very, the sound. Our final guest is Lena <inaudible>. She is from Indonesia and she joined us from Chicago. Uh, welcome Lene.
Speaker 4 00:52:34 Thank you. Thank you so much. Dr. Mean,
Speaker 1 00:52:38 You're most welcome. Uh, it is our pleasure to have you in our podcast. So, uh, <inaudible> is a doctoral student at the university of Chicago school of divinity. She is from Indonesia. She was born in East Java. Uh, she resides in Jakarta where she's also a lecturer at the state, the Atlantic university and Dr. Carta. Uh, right now she's on a study leaving Chicago at the university of Chicago's divinity school. And she also has an ma in Islamic studies from Hartford seminary. So we are, can you tell us a little bit about your experiences growing up in Indonesia, especially in Java and how was the observance of Ramadan in your community and in your family, first of all, you so much for inviting
Speaker 5 00:53:26 Me, um, and what the, uh, what an initiative this podcast. I mean, so thank you for, uh, being the garter of, of this podcast, um, growing up in Indonesia. Um, so the most obvious ones is that my neighbors are we're almost limbs. Um, I, I only later that I encountered a non-Muslim friends, uh, non Muslim friends personally, um, and then Moscow, everywhere you would hear other than five times a day. And then the community's very communal. Um, and that's what I, what I really miss from living in Indonesia and in life was full of religious rituals and ceremonies, commemorations, uh, conducted by, you know, us as a community also in terms of education. Um, I think most of us, at least in the village where I live in, we went to, I went to school, formal, formal schooling in the morning, and then in the afternoon, and in the, or in the evening, I went to my dress, our cooktop, you know, to learn how to recite the Koran and to learn Islamic sciences, um, you know, FIA pay, uh, <inaudible> history, those things, and these better and went on until my uni university life.
Speaker 5 00:54:53 So in the morning I went to formal schooling's universities. And then in the afternoon, in the afternoon, uh, in the evening, I, I went to a formal informal schooling, you know, religious schools also like most of us in let's say like some significant numbers of, of Muslim families in, in my neighborhood, or like in my hometown, um, they, they usually send the children to bond over Sandrine, traditional Islamic boarding school. I, my, my parents sent me off to UpandUp Sandra and when I was in my senior high school, so I lived in, I lived in, uh, Bondo, Sandra and 24, seven for three years, and then continuing, uh, I continued living in another, opened up Sandra and for my university life. So basically I studied in, in, I went over most school in, in the present. And then in the evening afternoon, I went to, uh, religious classes. So things like that and the ramble done. Right. You were asking about Ramadan.
Speaker 1 00:56:12 Yes, please. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly what I wanted to ask. So can you tell us a little bit about experiences in your, in your community or family and in <inaudible> in, in, in your Islamic schools, how was the observance of Ramadan there
Speaker 5 00:56:26 Not much different from today? Actually. So mom cooked for her, you know, he, she, she, uh, woke up around two or three in the morning and then schoolwork was only healthy, which we dressed good. And then in the afternoon, similar thing, we went to the Montreal, we went to madrasa, uh, and then I bought a lot of snacks that I thought I would eat all of them by then, you know, as kids, you know, but then you, you happen to not being able to eat all. And then if that was at home, not in the mosque, in the mosque, of course. And then after that, um, I went on the mosque to recite the Koran with my peers. Um, and it was really a special moment to me, uh, because, because it was protested, uh, throughout the neighborhood. So everyone listens to our presentations. It was like, Oh, I should, I should make sure that I reset the four unwell. So, so yeah, that was his, I think, in, in,
Speaker 1 00:57:38 So that was publicly asked on speakers and everybody in the, in the village could hear you reciting. Yes, that's true pressure
Speaker 5 00:57:48 Fresno. That's true. And, and, and, and I, I asked my brothers who live in, who lives with my mom in the village that the tradition continues today, even, uh, before Missouri, uh, they hold what we call the Roussanne. So it's of course from terrorists, but the Roussanne in this context really means Quranic recitation.
Speaker 1 00:58:15 Yeah. Th th that's really interesting because I was speaking earlier with Dr. Holly buffery from Bosnia and in Bosnia, they have this, um, practice called <inaudible>, which is also recitation of the Qur'an in the mosque. And it seems like there is a pretty much the same practice in Indonesia and you call it <inaudible>. Um, so, uh, you mentioned that you recited and it was broadcast. Uh, was there any restriction or limitation on women in terms of, did anybody ever say that women should not recite publicly or anything like that? How was it
Speaker 5 00:58:51 Not at all? And I've heard the discourse only very much later in my, uh, in my life when I read the news or whatever happens in the West or, or in the middle East. So it was, it was really something that was unknown to me that women couldn't recite or in public.
Speaker 1 00:59:13 So, so when you gathered in the mosque where, uh, so both men and women would attend and did you have teachers and reciters as well?
Speaker 5 00:59:24 I think we do. We do, but, but in madrasa, we mingle, like we have boys and girls in the same room, and sometimes we have female. Sometimes we have male teachers and they talk not only, uh, how to reset the Oran, but also, you know, like <inaudible> those things
Speaker 1 00:59:47 I see. All right. So tell us, what is your favorite Ramadan dish in Indonesia? What is your favorite Indonesian Ramadan dish that you like and that you miss the most? Right now,
Speaker 5 01:00:01 We, we have Cola. Cola is, is like dessert. So, uh, water, coconut milk, and then, uh, Palm Suger. And then you would add, uh, either, uh, what is it like bananas or fruits, or like beans, you know, in it, that's a staple dish to, to break your fast. Um, but what I need is my mom's cooking. Like every summer, usually she cooked, uh, but it's, it's not, it's not really a Ramadan dish, but the Ramadan dish and I family, uh, grilled eggplant with coconut milk sauce, it was like the best. And I really miss it when I go home during Ramada. And I always ask her to please make me some of this dish.
Speaker 1 01:00:55 That sounds so yummy. Um, you mentioned Soho, which is a pre-dawn meal that Muslims get up very early in the morning before starting of the fast they have that meal. And then they fast through the day and then comes at the sunset. There is another meal I'm just translating that terminology for people who may not be familiar with it. Um, so let's fast forward a little bit to today. Can you tell us some of the general practices among Indonesian Muslims during Ramadan? What are the things that stand out? What are some of the things that are really unique for, uh, during Ramadan, uh, in terms of religious practices,
Speaker 5 01:01:32 In terms of the basics? You know, of course every everywhere is the same in the Muslim world, right? Like, uh <inaudible> and then if bar, um, but before talking about some main practices in Indonesia, we need to keep in mind that Indonesia is a huge place, you know, hundreds of languages and tribes, uh, live in Indonesia, but I would mention like some highlights, uh, we have some practices, some, uh, that happened only during Ramadan. The first is not poo-pooed, it, it might be difficult to pronounce now, pooh-poohed it is, is events between Assar and Muslim. So the idea is that, um, you would spend the time, uh, waiting for the time for bringing your fast while doing activities. It can be, it can be anything from, uh, reciting the Koran together, life music discussions, preaching discussions on any topic, not only religious, just anything you, you can call it, Napa, put it as long as it is conduct.
Speaker 5 01:02:45 It is held, uh, between Assar and military. That's. One thing. The other thing is we have a tradition called <inaudible> <inaudible> literally means, uh, fast together and <inaudible> communities call leaks, friends, usually organized hookup every summer. Um, and sometimes we use this moment to you as a moment of reunion. For example, I want to get my friends from elementary school together. Okay. Let's have some together. Um, uh, calling first the whole time, probably it happens in, in the other parts of the Muslim world. Also like kids used to lay, went around the neighborhood with <inaudible> or something like that. Um, and then, uh, yeah, I think those, those things, uh, pretty stand out. Also, we have a traditional Ziara to, uh, you know, visiting the graveyards of our families that have passed, um, in some regions it is done before. I'm all done some during Ramadan, some after a solid, I will feel, um, and, and some enfolds meals, some is conducted individually by families organized by people as communities, or so this is also important. Yeah.
Speaker 1 01:04:18 Thank you, Leanne. Um, but I'm sure this COVID pandemic has also to change things in Indonesia too. So, um, maybe you could tell us a bit about how did the COVID pandemic maybe affected this? How did it affect these practices? Um, how does, how did communities respond to these things now?
Speaker 5 01:04:40 Yeah, of course, because, um, like in Indonesia and I believe in anywhere in the Muslim world, Ramadan is not only about, you know, personal preservation of religion, but, but it's really enforced community, right? Like if I'm in, when I mentioned to you, but <inaudible> a community gathering together in a, in know, in a place. Um, last year since Ramadan was really in the, in the start of funding week, everybody was anxious. The government took serious measure that, you know, don't gather. So the Ramadan was, was rather, uh, what is it like more, uh, it was, it wasn't as crowded as before, uh, many people prefer not to, uh, do the thought of in the mosque, of course, Nabu, booted events were moved online. Uh, pooper were, were not as many as pooper offender. The pre-game foster together. We're not as many as before, but this year I heard that people, uh, the, everyone, everyone is more relaxed about, you know, gathering together. Um, well, of course it was for example, like last year, even in, in, in my village, people still went for <inaudible> prior, but they maintain social distancing and that they, they still do it today in the mosque, but they are more relaxed when people are willing to go out to the mosque more, uh, seen it's been more than a year.
Speaker 1 01:06:19 Yeah. And that's what I hear from many other places. Very similar measures are being taken. Aliene finally, can you maybe share with our listeners a personal reflection on that? I'm not dumb,
Speaker 5 01:06:32 My personal reflection. I remember, um, uh, teaching from one of my teachers that I always remember. Um, so he, he said that Ramadan is only a training and, and in reality, we should leave Ramada and throughout, we should leave as if we, we are in the month of Ramadan throughout our life, um, that, you know, fasting is really in the principle of leaving. And, you know, like you, you, you cannot indulge your appetite, your desire as you wish, but you, you are, you, you need to always be in a, in a state of refraining, like holding, understanding boundaries. And, and he said that, um, having this mindset about life, that life is really about fasting is very important. Let alone today where we live in a society where capitalism and materialism is really, uh, it's breath, I think. Yeah. So I think that, yeah, that is
Speaker 1 01:07:52 Because so much, you mentioned boundaries, the edges, Islam, and the edges about boundaries, and then funding them from time to time. Thank you so much, Lynn, for this wonderful conversation.
Speaker 0 01:08:13 Well,
Speaker 1 01:08:13 You have been listening to episode of the Islam on the edges channel of the May 9th podcast. Please subscribe through Islam on the edges, on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or any other services. And we hope that you will be joining us for future episodes. They care be well and be healthy.
