Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:07 In episode 10 of the Islam on the Edges Podcast means Sinan, which talks with Professor Ingrid Madson about her recent visit to Bosnia and Herzegovina. Religious stories, including the Muslim version of Halal tourism, has been on the rise all over the world and in all religions. Professor Metson reflects on her visit to Bosnia by talking about the ethics of travel, importance of blending the belt environment with nature and Muslim practices in Herzegovina welcome sku. Welcome to episode 10 of Islam on the Edge's Channel of the Madan Podcast, a project by the Eman Center for Global Islamic Studies at George Mason University in Virginia. In this episode, we discussed Professor Matson's recent visit to one of the emerging destinations in the Balkans, Bosnia, and Herzegovina. With its rich Islamic history, dating back Toman era and extending to the present, Bosnia has become an important visit site for Muslims from all over the world, but primarily from the Arab Gulf countries, Turkey and Western Muslims, including from the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom.
Speaker 1 00:01:21 Halal tourism, a subcategory of religious tourism caters to Muslims by providing Muslim friendly destinations and content such as prayer spaces, halal food, and Muslim historical sites. According to B B C, the Muslim travel market is, is expected to reach 300 billion by 2026 Basian, her Segoa is an interesting case. According to the 2013 census, Basian is barely a Muslim majority country with just over 50% of population in identifying as Muslims. Yet they are heavily concentrated in the part of the country that hasn't been ethnically cleansed by the Serb, and to a lesser extent, paramilitary forces during the brutal aggression in the 1990s, combining a rich Ottoman legacy with a more recent secular experience under a communist regime, Basian, her Segoa provides an interesting mix of being situated in Europe and having a considerable Muslim presence and legacy. Professor Matson reflects on the ethics of travel, pointing to the huge carbon footprint of air travel.
Speaker 1 00:02:31 She explains the need for ethical dealing with the environment and the populations. One is visiting in Basia and Herzegovina. This is even more sensitive due to the recent memory of genocide, ethnic cleansing, and more crimes. Respectful listening and empathy are some of the key elements of the ethics of travel. While sharing her experiences, professor Ingrid Matson talks about the beauty of Bosnian mosques and their human proportions. She reflects on female prayer spaces in Bosnian mosques that would serve as a good example of inclusion and spirituality. We hope you'll enjoy this episode. Now. A few words about our guest, Dr. Ingrid Metson was born and raised in Canada, earning a BA in philosophy and fine arts. Then moved to the United States to study at the University of Chicago, earning a PhD in near Eastern Language and Civilizations in 1999. From 1998 to 2012, she was professor of Islamic Studies at Hartford Seminary in Connecticut, where she developed and directed the first accredited graduate program for Muslim chaplains in North America, and served as director of the McDonald's Center for the Study of Islam and Christian Muslim relations.
Speaker 1 00:03:46 Since 2012, she has held the London and Windsor Community Chair in Islamic studies at Huron University College at Western University in London, Canada. From thousand one to 2010, Dr. Matson served as vice president, then as president of the Indiana based Islamic Society of North America isna. In that position, she established the office of Interfaith and Community Engagement in Washington DC and facilitated new partnerships with other faith-based communities and civic organizations. Her writings both academic and public focused primarily on the Quran interpretation, Islamic theological ethics and interfaith relations. Her book, the Story of the Quran, is an academic bestseller and was distributed to libraries across the United States by the US National Endowment for the Humanities. Dr. Matson is a senior fellow of the Royal Al Bay Institute for Islamic thought in Amman. Jordan was a member of the interfaith task force of the White House Office of Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships during the presidency of Barack Obama. She's the recipient of numerous awards as well as honorary doctorates from Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut, the Chicago Theological Seminary, and the University of Waterloo. Dr. Mattson is currently working on a major project addressing spiritual and sexual abuse in Muslim spaces. The Homa Project is committed to upholding the sacred inviolability of each person who is present in Muslim spaces by elucidating the special responsibilities of those holding power and authority, and by educating those who are vulnerable about their God-given dignity and rights.
Speaker 1 00:05:36 And with us is Professor Ingrid Matton. Professor Ingrid Sali. And welcome to our podcast.
Speaker 2 00:05:42 Well, thank you.
Speaker 1 00:05:46 You're most welcome. And thank you so much for agreeing to be our guest. So I guess we'll immediately launch into the conversation about your visit to Bosnia. And so I wanna first maybe to give us some background, why did you go, what was the objective you were trying to accomplish? Was it alone? Was it with a group? Uh, maybe give us basic background and itinerary.
Speaker 2 00:06:11 Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm really excited to be joining you, uh, with you to talk about my, uh, maybe second favorite country since my first, the country where I live has to be my <laugh>, my favorite. Um, so Elham, I, uh, was asked by, um, the leadership at Baan Islamic Graduate School, which is an American graduate, Islamic graduate school based out of Claremont, California and Chicago. Um, if I would be a scholar teacher on a trip, they were planning to Bosnia. So Baan runs a number of, uh, study tours every year, and I, uh, occasionally teach with Van, um, and have a longstanding relationship with them. So, so they reached out to me about that. I had been to Bosnia once before, uh, five years before with Cambridge Muslim College, where I also was a teacher on that trip with she, uh, AB Morad who was leading the tour.
Speaker 2 00:07:16 That was a much larger group. And I, I really was excited about going back personally, that trip five years ago. It wasn't my first contact with Bosnia. I, you know, I was a graduate school student in Chicago in the early nineties when, um, the war was waged against Bosnia. I was really aware of what was going on, involved with our community and the activism, trying to rally support for Bosnians. And then when the United States began receiving, uh, refugees from the war, of course, you know, we got to know people. Uh, my my teacher, she Muhammadu, who is the imam of a big mosque in St. Louis at that time, um, had very good relationships with the, uh, Bosnian community that settled there. And then when I moved to Connecticut, we had, um, a big group of Bosnians who came to Hartford and settled there and, and frankly, had had quite a difficult time, but showed tremendous unity and resilience in, in building a community, in a very self-reliant way. And, uh, that always deeply impressed me. So I just have this, uh, kind of longstanding love for all of those people who I met over time. And then, uh, was so happy when I was able to go five years ago. So I, I jumped at the chance to return with Baan, um, the, this time.
Speaker 1 00:08:47 So, you know, in the past decade or so, maybe a little longer, Bosnia has emerged as a destination for Muslim tourists. First, I think, especially after nine 11, where many, uh, Muslims from the Middle East found it harder to travel to the West. They discovered Bosnia, and they started coming to Bosnia because it gave them an opportunity to go to some parts of Europe. It was much easier to get a visa. It was, they also discovered it was much cheaper than going to France or Germany or England. And so, in Bosnia, I think we've seen the influx of Muslim tourists. But then in the last maybe five to 10 years, we've also seen quite a number of Muslims from Western Europe, and especially from England and North America, from the US and Canada coming to Bosnia. So what is it about Bosnia that is attractive and, and that it makes it an interesting destination for Muslims coming from these parts of the world? And if you could then elaborate, maybe what are some of the opportunities or advantages, but also pitfalls of such type of religious tourism?
Speaker 2 00:09:57 Yeah, this is such a, such a great question. Such an important question. First, I wanna say that, that I am not, uh, a fan of tourism per se. I'm not interested in, in it. I limit my travel now, um, and really for a long time to go to other places, only for a purpose, only if there's a really beneficial purpose. I don't believe in just satisfying curiosity by traveling here and there. Maybe in the past that could be a valid reason, but today we know the, um, uh, the impact of travel, the environmental impact, the carbon footprint of flying is huge. So I, I really take it seriously whether I will travel to a place, especially if a place requires flying. Um, so I, I, I limit that. And, um, this is an issue we discussed in our first, um, get to know each other meeting, uh, with the group for Bayan when we just met online before we went.
Speaker 2 00:11:05 Uh, I made it clear what my purpose was. Um, and I, I don't, I think everyone has this, has, um, you know, this interest in going to Bosnia because it is a Muslim country, because it's of its history, because of its natural beauty, et cetera. Um, I think also a lot of people, I'm not saying necessarily this group, but many other Muslims still have this idea that is very popular today, that let's go to as many places as we can, you know, the so-called bucket list mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I, I really don't like this idea. I think it, um, it trivializes what it means to go to someplace. And I don't think we should ever go to a place without understanding what our impact, uh, on, on that visit will be. And we definitely shouldn't instrumentalize other people in other countries just for our own pleasure, right?
Speaker 2 00:12:00 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So if we think about in, in Islamic law and ethic, ethics, if we think about priorities, so darria and, and <inaudible> at the top are the urgent needs, and then the, the kind of, uh, necessities of life, and then the rest are the things that make life beautiful. So, you know, if travel is only to, um, for enjoyment, then we really need to balance that with, um, whether that travel is impacting the ability of other people to, to live. So, so that's one thing I would say. And when I look at this in the context of Bosnia, for me, it was worth returning because, uh, for me, in any case, and I think for many of those who went, because, uh, many are involved in education at some level, I wanna take that my experiences, my knowledge, and share it with other people.
Speaker 2 00:13:00 And this is something that we talked about in the group, that no matter what our purpose was in going, we've seen things, we've learned things, we've had interactions with people. And I believe as Muslims, there's a responsibility to carry that knowledge to others in a way that's beneficial to, um, the people and the places we encountered. I have to say that I did notice a big difference, um, in Bosnia since I was there five years ago. And one of the things I saw was a lot of advertisement for real estate developments. Yes. Uh, vacation properties. Um, most of these were advertised in Arabic, in the Arabic language. They were clearly tailored primarily to, as you say, people from from the Gulf, for example. Correct. And yeah, I mean, I really have mixed feelings about that. Um, and I guess, you know, obviously Islam is a cosmopolitan global religion, and we believe that going to other places, living with other people, even for part of the year, there's, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that.
Speaker 2 00:14:11 That could be actually a very good thing. It can help, uh, the economy, it can provide jobs, it can increase our understanding of each other. But the reality is in today's, uh, real estate market, these kind of developments tend to have a negative impact on the local people. I mean, we know all across North America and Europe that, uh, or at least I know in Canada, the United States, the uk, it's almost impossible for people to find an affordable place to live. And having homes that are dedicated to tourists, uh, and travelers, uh, tends to squeeze local people out of the real estate market. And I did hear about that from my Bosnian friends who said that at this point, if you hadn't already, uh, if you didn't already own a property, you probably never will be able to, given the, the huge increase of prices that this, um, these kind of, uh, this holiday market or vacation market has created.
Speaker 1 00:15:13 Yeah, it does. Uh, I know that probably in the last 10 years, the prices have doubled in Bosnia, and you are in Canada, and you know that in Canada, it's, it's reached the point where it's, it's almost, it's totally unaffordable for people. I, I, um, I was in Toronto just couple of months ago, and I'm talking to people there, it was just, um, the, basically, it's totally unaffordable,
Speaker 2 00:15:38 Even though No, I, I don't know anyone who, you know, all of us who have, who have children who are even in their late twenties or thir thirties mm-hmm. <affirmative> have to help our kids even with rent, because it is, if they live in Toronto, it it is unaffordable.
Speaker 1 00:15:55 Yeah. So, so going back to Bosnia, um, there is that aspect of it, which is foreign investments or, um, foreigners who would like to buy property in Bosnia. And there are real estate developments, but there is also, interestingly enough pressure that comes from diaspora. You know, all the refugees, Bosnian that have ended up in Western Europe and North America now have purchasing power to go and buy property in Bosnia. And that pushes and drives the prices up. And, and like you rightly said, makes it often unaffordable for people who have stayed in Bosnia. Um, so you are from Canada. You studied and lived in the United States, you are back in Canada as somebody from North America as a Western Muslim. How does Bosnia look like from that vantage point? How does a western Muslim feels experiences? Bosnia, I would like to learn more about your perspective,
Speaker 2 00:16:55 <laugh>. Yeah. Well, well, there's, there's so, so much to say. At the end of our, our Bayan tour, we just kind of dipped our toe in, in Croatia. So we went to Thero neck at the end for just two days, and then, uh, coming back to Bosnia because we, um, we flew out, A couple of us flew out back from Val, and, and I have a friend there, so I wanted to spend a few more days with her. It was just so interesting to see the contrast, of course, what Croatia got or was given or took, um, after the, the war and, and the breakup of Yugoslavia, and then the end of the war, and what Bosnia got. And it was interesting because one of the people I was traveling with said, you know, um, uh, probably it feels to the Croatians in many ways.
Speaker 2 00:17:51 Like they, they, they really won the best part of the land, you know, this, this coast, uh, along the, the sea and the beaches and all of the tourists there. But on the other hand, it, it just felt like a completely different world. Croatia felt, you know, and I, I mean, obviously this is with the tourist area, I'm sure it's very different in the interior where most of the regular people live, but it, it was like going to any other place in Europe that's overcrowded with tourists, where they're emphasizing this kind of global culture, commercial market. Oh, this is where the Game of Thrones was, you know, was, was filmed kind of thing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Whereas Bosnia still feels like this, this feels like the Lawhead and Bosnia feels like the bot. I mean, Bosnia is in the interior, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> a tiny bit of coast, but it's in the interior of the land, and you can't really get to Bosnia unless you wanna go there.
Speaker 2 00:18:55 And every place in Bosnia takes a little bit of an effort to go to, I mean, it's so hilly and mountainous and winding roads, and, and in that, in that effort and in that somewhat, uh, you know, away from, from what is a very strong, and it's not, it's not immune from it. But still, until now, mostly not dominated by this global, uh, tourism culture. Uh, so much is preserved, so much is precious, so much is, uh, uh, uh, you know, a place of, of just inner peace and tranquility, really. It feels that way. And I would say there's a few reasons for it. First of all, of course, you know, God bless this land with just tremendous natural beauty. And this spring there's been so much rain. So every river, every stream, every waterfall was just gushing. I mean, the water was just constantly flowing.
Speaker 2 00:19:58 Yeah. Verdin, everything blooming, everything green. I mean, God bless this land, really, uh, just the, the tremendous nature. So beautiful. But within it, what you find, I mean, most places and, and Soah have just so much respect and admiration and love for our Bosnian, uh, uh, Muslim sisters and brothers, you know, everything, all of the traditional mosques, the traditional tech gaze, everything has been, if it was, if it was destroyed, it's been rebuilt. Yes. Um, if it wasn't, if it wasn't destroyed, it's been preserved and not only preserved it's used, people go there. And, and what's what's really striking is, of course, I, I think Bosnia really had a, um, uh, was blessed in that when Asam came to Bosnia, there was already a, a beautiful kind of Ottoman style that had developed mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and so, uh, the, the materials, the, the design style, the proportions, but also because of the mountainous way, every, almost everything has to be pretty small because it's too hard to go from, you know, one, one side of the valley to the next.
Speaker 2 00:21:24 So that distance, if it was a flat land, maybe one mosque would be enough. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But because to go from one mountain to the other mountain, it's, it's, it's too, uh, rigorous. So you have a tiny little mosque on this side and another small little mosque on the other side. And what I really love are the humane proportions Yes. Of these traditional buildings. Um, first of all, uh, so, so they're small, you feel they're beautiful, but it feels cozy. Um, and it feels like a place where you could have community. And I would compare that with, say, the mosques in a place like in, in, in Turkey, and a lot in Turkey, a lot of the places where people go now and just being awestruck by these gigantic massive, you know, uh, brilliant, uh, buildings, they are great, but the primary feeling there is one of awe. Yes. Whereas in Bosnia, the feeling is of warmth, hospitality, coziness, that this is a place where you could really be part of a neighborhood where people would know you. So I,
Speaker 1 00:22:40 And just feel grounded too,
Speaker 2 00:22:42 Very grounded. The same, the material. And then this is the material culture. The materials that are used to build these traditional buildings are, are the, from the materials of the landscape, stone wood, and then lots of, uh, wool carpets from the, you know, the animals in the area. So it's, um, you feel that Islam doesn't dominate the la the landscape, but is part of mm-hmm. <affirmative> is part of the landscape. And, and this sense of, of harmony is so beautiful. And, and for me, this is something that I think we should learn because the trend in North America is always let's build a bigger and bigger and bigger mosque. Right. Bigger one
Speaker 1 00:23:30 Centers with, you know, thousand square feet, then
Speaker 2 00:23:34 <laugh>. Right. And, and how much of a, how much land is paved over for the parking lot? So you have a gigantic parking lot, and then a big building, um, and you go in there and it doesn't have the, the kind of warmth, first of all, you have to drive to it. Right. That's why you need the parking lot, <laugh>. So the environmental impact is bad. Yeah. But then you go in there, and, and I'm not saying that some communities don't do a good job trying to make like different haahs or study circles or different groups, but honestly, it has a very different feeling. And, and I think in, in the West and in North America, we could really benefit from understanding that our primary need or places in our neighborhood Yes. Where we can connect with the people. And then sometimes when there's a big event, you know, you need, you need one Jami mosque, or you need one place that could fit everyone that you rent. But what we really need is, is community.
Speaker 1 00:24:32 Yeah. I think this is such an important point, and it's so interesting hearing it from somebody obvious who's not Bosnian. You know, I grew up there and I'm very attached to the land, even if I, you know, even though I don't live in Bosnia now, but I go frequently to see my parents or Hamdu are still alive. And, um, one thing I always attributed this to just being from that land that I always said this to my friend, and it's very personal to my friends, that when I go to Bosnian Mosque to pray in Bosnia, and I make suru with frustration, I really feel connected to the ground, to the land, to the earth itself, which I don't feel in a lot of other places. And I was always wondering, is it just the function of me being Bosnian, having that connection to it? Uh, but it seems to me from the answer that you gave to my previous question, that there is something more than just being a Bosnian, that these proportions, human proportions of mosques in Bosnia and, and the materials being used really are connective tissue that connect us to the environment that we are part of.
Speaker 1 00:25:40 And I think this is such an important lesson to take from that.
Speaker 2 00:25:45 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:25:46 I assume you spent about, what, about week to 10 days over there? So this is, I think, a good time. You know, about three months ago, I also led a group of students from Shanandoah University, and these were regular students from the university. Nobody in the group was a Muslim. This wasn't a, a Muslim trip per se. Uh, this was more of a cultural trip. But we obviously, we visited many Islamic monuments and sites and so on. And the students also had some really interesting things to say about their experiences. But I wanna ask you, what are the experiences that you would like to highlight? Uh, what moved you, well, visiting Bosnia, what annoyed you? Maybe <laugh>, you know, what are some of the things that stood out in both in a good way and in a emotional or personal way, but also, what are some things that maybe you found, Hmm, this is not as great <laugh>?
Speaker 2 00:26:42 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, um, I, I made sure that I went, uh, a few days before our group came and stayed a few days after. So I was there this time for about two weeks. And because I do have a, a friend there, so I was able to, to do a le a little bit extra other than our trip, which was helpful. And, and actually one of the things I did, and, and this is, this relates to the tourism issue, is that, uh, I had told the leadership at Bayan that, um, if we're going to Bosnia, um, of course there was a, a local guide who was with the people who arrange the logistics, and she was good. But I also thought it was important because our trip was very, um, packed full of going here and there. So I made sure I, I asked Ban, and they agreed to hire a friend of mine who is a, you know, a Muslim woman who teaches, uh, and study circles and who is an Islamic teacher.
Speaker 2 00:27:45 So she was able to help give some extra insights, spiritual insights and, and history, personal history as we went along. And I think that was very helpful. And, and this is a person who, uh, herself, I would say has done a lot of work on understanding the relationship between the impact of the war, having lived through the war as a child, and her own, uh, the, the impact that that had on her emotions, her psychology, her spirituality. And so that was something that she was able to reflect upon as we went along. And I thought it was, I, I think this is really helpful because I am, I am very interested in how our collective experiences of harm affect us as Muslims mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, for example, um, you know, of course the Bosnians experience genocide, and that's, that's at a level beyond anything, anyone, any of us who didn't experience that, um, could, could even imagine.
Speaker 2 00:28:53 I, in the, in the west here, we've had o over 20 years of a very hardcore Islamophobia, organized Islamophobia, the surveillance state. We've also had violence. You know, I live in Canada. We had the, uh, murderous attack, um, on the worshipers in the Quebec City mosque. We just, um, memorialized a few days ago, the attack two years ago on a family, a Muslim family who was going for a walk in the neighborhood. In, in the city where I live in London, Canada, you know, we've had the Christ Church attack. So we have together really experienced a, a lot of violence on different levels. And it's so important that we pay attention to these things. How do they affect us? Um, what are tools for, for healing, for support and, and for, uh, you know, to, to learn, to keep learning, to keep remembering. And how does it impact in ways that we don't know?
Speaker 2 00:29:57 So I say all of this to say that some of the people have spent some time really thinking about this. And on the other hand, I would say a lot of people have not. And I can see that in Bosnia. So one of the things that when you experience a collective harm like this, the, the very fact that people haven't experienced this harm as individuals, but they, or they haven't experienced them as individuals, but also as a group, can be a source of resilience because, you know, you're not alone. You're not suffering alone. And I think the, the leadership in Bosnia and, um, community groups have, do, done a really good job, uh, memorializing what happened, keeping it alive, providing support for those who, um, who suffered, you know, whether they were orphaned, uh, widows, women who experienced sexual violence, all of these things. But I, I think that for a lot of people, and I heard this talking to some Basian people, they, they, they will say, well, it didn't affect me that much, or, I'm over it, or I'm beyond it.
Speaker 2 00:31:08 And really, that can't be the case. Yeah. And so I would say that this is one area where probably there needs to be some more sensitive work. I noticed it with our Boan community in Hartford as well, when they, um, came as political refugees, there were some real crises among people who, who, who struggled so much with their, um, mental health with trauma that they, they just, um, you know, it was, it was haunting them mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so I would say this is one area, you know, it's not my place to give this, to give advice, but I, but I did notice that maybe it's one area where there needs to be some more, some more input in terms of this link between mental health, uh, on an individual level, our own, um, how that affects our relationships, our attachments with our children, with our spouses, with our families.
Speaker 2 00:32:08 You know, it really can impact the, the health of our relationship. So I would say, um, that's one area where, um, I think there might be some more, uh, attention paid mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, uh, at the same time, what is beautiful is, uh, the sense of, I think most what I suffer most Bosnians is even if they're not very happy with, uh, all of their political leaders or all of their religious leaders, or whoever's in office this time, or that there's not a sense that, well, we should just make our own group, or mm-hmm. <affirmative>, let's fight them, or let's go against them. There really is a sense that there is in a small community like this, a community that already there are a lot of forces that are trying to divide that really being a united group, having patience, trying to make change, but not, not splitting off and making a new group is so critical. And, and I have a lot of respect for that.
Speaker 1 00:33:15 Yeah. That's such a great point. Obviously politically, there are many political parties in Bosnia, even among, you know, Bosnian Muslim, but religiously speaking, yeah. There are different orientations among the people. But you know, by and large, most of Bosniacs Bosnian Muslim belong to the official, call it the official Islamic community of Boston Herzegovina that has its own history, obviously going to the Ottoman times, but especially since the time of the Austro-Hungarian occupation, when it was formally created, and until today, until remarkable, I think now that you're pointing out that in spite of all the differences that exist among the Bosnians, the secularization that took place in the 20th century under communism and so on, that there is still one overarching institution catering to the religious needs, uh, Bosnians and, uh, giving them stability in a world that is changing. So it's one institution that has survived all of these different political regimes, upheavals, violence that took place against the Muslim community in Bosnia, Herzegovina, this one institution has with had withstood the, um, the changes, uh, obviously it also changed over time, but I mean, as an institution, it survived. Yes. And it provided stability, it provided religious education, it provided beement administration of mosques, uh, providing both education at the mosque level, but also at the high school and university level and so on. So, when you think of it, this is actually quite remarkable. And the most remarkable thing to me in all of that is that it's not government related. Right.
Speaker 1 00:35:01 So it's not, it's not supported by the government's, not sponsored by the government, it's not funded by the government. Yes. Though, you know, they may receive grants for projects just like any other, uh, institution, but it's, it's really what in, in North American environment, we would call an non-governmental organization.
Speaker 2 00:35:19 Yes. And, and there's another aspect. It, yeah, there's another aspect to it that, that I thought was really important. Um, not everyone likes this aspect of it, but I, I think it probably really is, is more beneficial than, than detrimental, which is that is that, that this organization, uh, does insist that, um, Zika, that that comes into, to Bosnia goes through their channels, right? Yes. And, and why is that important? Because we know, I mean, certainly we in, in North America know the impact that money has had on religious trends, uh, among Muslims over the number of decades. Right. And just
Speaker 1 00:36:08 For the sake listeners, we're talking about the cat, which is one of the pillars of Islam usually translate as charity or ons just in case, you know, people do not fully relate to what we're talking about. So sorry for interrupting.
Speaker 2 00:36:21 Yeah, yeah. No, that's really helpful. Well, because, because the cat has to go to, to designated, um, categories of people, first of all, uh, it, it needs, it, it needs to be regulated because it's not, it's actually not really, uh, it's not like free charity. It's, it's a wealth tax on Muslims that has to go back to certain categories of people. So it's really careful or important that it's done carefully. But beyond that, in a small country like Bosnia, um, if, if say a whole bunch of money comes from, say, some group that, that follows a School of Islam or an ideology that is not, that is different or even sometimes opposed to the traditional school of thought, you know, the, the traditional Hefe <inaudible> mm-hmm. <affirmative> School of Thought, which are the, the legal and the theological schools that are dominant traditionally in Bosnia, that, that you could, you could easily have a, a huge impact on people's, the way people understand their religion. And it can, we've seen it in North America, that it can create fissures, it can create divisions. It can create, you know, a, a really negative dynamic. So I do think that is, uh, an interesting and significant decision.
Speaker 1 00:37:47 Yeah. And you know, another interesting aspect of this is a cat and the insistence that it should go through the official channels of the Islamic community official, meaning that this is an official institution. It's not, again, an, an important, this distinction, it's not a government institution, is that, I think it was in the sixties and the seventies, that some of the scholars within the Bosnian Muslim community developed this idea and gave a fatah or religious opinions that the salaries of the eams, as well as the money for the upkeep of the mosque and so on, can come from this fund. And this solved a problem that is a perennial problem in a lot of Muslim communities. How do we fund our mosques? How do we fund the salaries for the EAMS and religious teachers and so on? Now, of course, some of a more traditional bent would say that this doesn't really fall within the traditional opinions of the Zika, but it worked within this context.
Speaker 1 00:38:49 And until today, it works so that the community basically funds itself. Now, we did have some challenge, uh, especially during and after the aggression on Bosnia, which is that with the influx of some of the foreign money, especially from the Gulf, the Arab Gulf, there was a sponsorship of different schools of thought than the one that were prevalent in Bosnia. And there was some friction there, and it still continues, but the situation today is much better than it was 10, 20 or 25 years ago. So, again, the community found a way to deal with that and maintain its own independence without sacrificing that independence for the sake of foreign donations and money. Yes. And quite a bit of studies had been written about this. So I want to ask a follow up question. As a Muslim woman, obviously from Canada, how was, how did it feel traveling through Bosnia, going to different places, interacting with people, going to mosques and other religious sites? Uh, what do you find in Bosnia that is similar or different to other places? And just generally maybe your own personal experience of all of that?
Speaker 2 00:40:03 Yeah. It is difficult for me to describe how at home I feel among Bosnians and in Bosnian mosques. And, and I'll tell you, the first Bosnian mosque I ever went to was in Hartford, Connecticut. And it was the same feeling. And what is that feeling? The feeling, not that, oh, we welcome women, or there's a place for women. It's not even a question. Like, like there is not even a question. It is the, the reception is normal, natural, we're the community. And I've, I've never been in a place where it felt so normal to be a Muslim and not have to necessarily think about what it, about being a Muslim woman or worried that I was gonna have to justify. Now, of course, I, I, I heard from Bosnian women that some mosques, they don't have room to accommodate women on Mont because they're not, you know, they're not big enough or, you know, the strange situation that, that culturally or traditionally women in Bosnia don't go for aid prayers.
Speaker 2 00:41:22 So that's, you know, I've never understood how that ever happened at any place, because there are very, very clear teachings from the prophet that aid prayer actually is the most inclusive prayer. But I think part of it has to do with the fact that aid prayers are supposed to be held in an outside field, not in a mosque. So, you know, in many places where, where you're trying to have this big, what should be a big open community gathering in a small building, there will be problems. But day-to-day it is just beautiful. And, and part of it is that, uh, every traditional mosque has a designated place for woman. And it is not in a separate room, but it, there is a little, it, it's almost like a, a, a little railing mm-hmm. <affirmative> that designates that area. And why is that important
Speaker 1 00:42:13 Knee length, height? Right,
Speaker 2 00:42:15 Right, right. Yes. Just enough. It, it's a symbolic marker, really. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But it's important because if you don't have that, because we as Muslims, we, you know, we don't have chairs or benches. If you don't have that, it's very easy to walk into a mosque that's just an open space. And to find some man who's, who's has, is leaning his back against the back wall reading. He might not even be thinking about it. But, but given that the, the prayer is and rose, um, relative to each other, you, you know, they might end up taking that space. So having this designated space is important. Every mosque had it on the main, with the main prayer hall. Um, also most had a balcony that was a beautiful balcony overlooking, again, not, not cut off. I mean, you really, I I, I always think, um, the traditional Bosnia mosques remind me of, of like log cabins or ski cabins that I go to in Canada, you know, just as that feel made out of wood, a little sort of balcony or porch kind of thing.
Speaker 2 00:43:24 So the same design, the same beautiful carpets, the same beautiful, everything. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so just absolutely loved it, never had any, um, unlike in many places in a, around the Mediterranean, you don't find guys hanging out in the street, uh, girl watching or whatever. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, everyone's busy, everyone's working. People have things to do. So a very, what, what I would just say a very natural, um mm-hmm. <affirmative> way of interacting that is respectful and, uh, and makes you feel really, very, very much at home. And I, you know, the women that we were traveling with said, said the same thing. They were so eager, you know, they were getting up at FGI and going to the mosque and mm-hmm. <affirmative> just every, every time there was, uh, was a opportunity to play, pray in a mosque. Um, people
Speaker 1 00:44:19 Were, and quite safe to even go at 5:00 AM to walk to mosque in Yes.
Speaker 1 00:44:26 Yeah. Absolutely. Thing, well, talking maybe maybe you also noticed or learned, or maybe people told you about, is that many of the artifacts that are in the mosques are also a wack of, or an endowment. So there would be people who would basically buy a, buy a carpet for the mosque and, or a rug, and they would put it in the mosque, and that would be their endowment. Or they would even buy a small things like <inaudible>, you know, msdi that you do for the prayers, you know, to, to count the number of times that you do the vicar or the remembrance of God. Um, even things like that, or the saja, you know, the prayer mats or a light fixture or, um, a lantern or a chandelier. All of these things are endowed by the members of the community, you know, so they, somebody would be like, when they're building mosque, okay, I'm going to endow the chandelier for the, I'm going to buy the adornment for the re, or something like that. And these are the kinda things that, that notion of Waka and that community, uh, contributes and feels that this belongs to them, I think is so important.
Speaker 2 00:45:37 Yes. A absolutely. And it, and you feel that, you feel, you, you walk in the space and it is a riot of colors, <laugh> of patterns of decoration. I, I am a maximalist in design. I love, that's my favorite many patterns, many colors. I am the opposite of a minimalist. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So you go in and it's not only that there's so much there, but each item, you feel the love in it. You feel that, you know, you feel the caring. And then I, I'm sure that, that if you belong to this community and you go in there and you see what you contributed, it just, it is this feeling that this is, this is for us. Um, you know, it's, it's not, uh, it's really hard to describe how, how homey, how cozy, how warm and welcoming it is. But I just, I, I wish we would take that, because one of the things that people talk about in the West generally these days, and we feel it in Muslim communities, is people feel disconnected. You know, they feel lonely, they feel like they don't belong. They can go, they might go seek community in a mosque or in Islamic center, but it's a big, vast space. No one knows them. No one turns to them. Like what have they contributed? We can, you know, we can take some, some tips from how this is done, um, traditionally among Bosnians and, and try to reproduce some of that in our communities. And I think we'll be much, uh, much better for it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:47:25 Yeah. In many ways, I think the attempt is to recreate the homey atmosphere at the mosque so that when you go to the mosque, you feel like you're basic sitting at home. It's not like this oftentimes here in the United States, and I'm sure it's the case in Canada too, we have these lifeless carpets, you know, these industrial style carpets that are just put down. Uh, but, um, like you've rightly pointed out in Bostonian Mosque, you have maybe five, six different rugs come from five, six different people, and they all in different colors, but somehow it works together. And, and there is that personal touch, and you feel, okay, I feel when I sit down, like I'm sitting at home, it's not like I'm in a different place. It's not an industrial like
Speaker 2 00:48:10 Place. And, and by the way, most of them are, are wool. So, which is a natural material. Natural. Natural, as opposed, opposed to the synthetic. Because when you, when you walk into many North American moss, there's actually that smell of the off-gassing of these, of these artificial, uh, these carpets that are made out of artificial materials in addition to everything else. So, uh, I, I think, you know, smaller is if go smaller, but have good quality and natural materials. Yeah. You know, the other thing that I love is that when the mosque, as you know, when the mosque is closed between prayers and, you know, most mosques, the door will be locked between prayers because you don't wanna just leave things unattended. Unattended. You don't know what might happen. But, um, the traditional mosques have the, have under the, uh, portico in the front, two raised platforms, one on the right and one on the left. And everyone knows that the right is where is for the men, and the left is for the women. So that if someone comes by when outside of the time that the mosque is open, they still have a clean, quiet, peaceful place to pray. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I, you know, again, it shows that these are places that developed out of the needs of the people and knowing who the people are.
Speaker 1 00:49:34 Yes, yes. It's beautiful. And some of the mosques, actually, those, uh, outside spaces for prayer that are under the political, as you said, some of the courtyards have roses and other flowers. So if you come outside the regular time for prayer and you're praying outside, you're actually praying also amidst if, if the season, obviously during this season, you Yeah. Be praying amidst the roses and flowers and everything else. And it's just so beautiful. I'm glad you're reminding me of that now, sort on my mind wanders back to, to those places. Yeah. It's absolutely amazing. So, uh, professor Ingrid, you are also our, a scholar of Islam. And so as a scholar of Islam going to place like Bosnia, that has a longstanding Islamic learning tradition that may not be as well known outside Bosnia as, for instance, Islamic holiday tradition in Turkey and in Syria, Egypt and other places. What are some of the things that you, as a scholar of Islam have learned there, or have noticed? What are some of the opportunities for study learning research that maybe you discovered during the visit to Bosnia that you would like to share with our audience?
Speaker 2 00:50:49 I mean, there's, there's many, there's many, of course, there's the official ones, uh, like the faculty of, uh, of Islamic studies in Sarajevo, which has a excellent, excellent program, as you know, for university, uh, level study. I also visited the, the new, um, either it's called center or Institute for Kran and Sunna, which is just a lovely jewel. So that's, that's, uh, a compliment. A place that compliments the university, learning for those who, who want to, in addition to their, um, Islamic theological studies, uh, at the same time focus on, uh, memorizing, memorizing the Quran and getting additional i jaa based education, which is beautiful. Of course, there are many of the, the, the majority, um, Sufi traditions are represented in Bosnia, especially the, the Nha Bundis, uh, and others, ma these are the spiritual disciplines in Islam that again, are not separate from, uh, the schools of, of law, or not separate from society, but, uh, compliment, um, all other aspects of Islamic learning and practice so that those who want to spend additional time in remembrance of God in quiet contemplation or in contemplation reflecting on the names of God or on the qualities of the Prophet Mohammed piece be upon him, they can gather in these, uh, small places, tech gaze where they would have regular, uh, regular gatherings and teachings.
Speaker 2 00:52:37 So that's, they're all across Bosnia. There are small techies that are beautiful. And then, uh, increasingly new. I I think this is, uh, a newer thing where there are now, um, some women women's groups who form their own study groups or haahs. Uh, one of the things that I, that I really love, which is something that my, my friend does, is her focus is on older women. Women who, who not only lived through the, the genocide, but women who even at that time were already older. In some cases, women in their sixties, seventies, eighties, who never had a chance to study their religion. First they were living in a communist government and then through the genocide, and, uh, their life was about survival. Yes. But now that in their older age, they have some time. And, um, so there are some of those who are now meeting with these women and teaching them how to read the Quran and Yes.
Speaker 2 00:53:45 How to recite the Quran. And that's beautiful because, uh, like they say, some people never thought they, they were worth that effort. Right. I mean, we think about how we talk about people in our community, and we talk about how youth are our, our future. Okay, that's true. Literally, the youth will, will grow, um, and, and be the leaders, but it doesn't mean that other people don't matter. Yeah. And we live in an age where there are many, many more people living into old age. And the reality is, in, in North America, many of those become quite lonely. They're even lonely in the houses. So we know many Muslim families who bring their grandparent or their elderly parents in the home, but then they're out working all day. The kids are at school. And those, those older, you know, our seniors or our elders are being isolated even in homes.
Speaker 2 00:54:42 Yes. And they lack a sense of purpose. They lack community. They lack people who have shared experiences with them. So I love, I love that there are those who are, are focusing on elders, uh, affirming that they have the same human dignity, they have the same <inaudible>, the same sacred in viability, and, and have as much of, of a right and even capacity to learn. I mean, it's tremendous to see some of these women who never knew Alif Beta now reciting the Quran. So that to me was v was very, very moving, seeing that, and hearing about those experiences.
Speaker 1 00:55:27 You know, even occasionally reading Bosnian Islamic, you know, newspapers or websites, I see from time to time these news about so and so who is 73 years old and has just learned how to read the Quran or something like that. Yeah. <laugh>. And it's just such a warm human tale to, to tell and, and to learn about. It's, it's beautiful. I'm, I'm glad you are highlighting that. Professor Ingrid, at the end of our conversation, and I know we could go on and on about this, but what are some of the main takeaways or maybe recommendations that you could give to people who are thinking of visiting Bosnia or other similar places and, and, you know, Muslim lands, uh, what are some of the main things that they should know? What are some of the main takeaways for you from personally from that trip, and maybe even some cautionary tales? What are some things that people need to be aware of in terms of, you know, maybe what not to do? Or what are some of the things maybe of difficulties that they could be facing if they go to such places?
Speaker 2 00:56:35 Well, I think first of all, we have to start by recognizing that if we are able to, to go take a trip voluntarily, um, for, for pleasure or even for learning that we are in a position of great privilege globally, most people in the world can't do that. And we have to think about what that implies for the place that we're, we're visiting. So, first of all, I, you know, I, I, I do wanna repeat that. We, in the West America, in particular, Canada, Western Europe, were the primary contributors to climate change because of our consumption. And that includes our consumption with travel. So we have to take that seriously. We have to think about, um, what are we doing to offset, offset that. And also to think about, to be, um, to, to be mindful about how many trips we wanna take or what kind of a trip.
Speaker 2 00:57:33 So, so that's one thing I would say second. Um, so that's sort of a global concern. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Then the second would be what is the impact that we will be having on the people that we visit? What about the, if we're renting Airbnbs, for example, I mean, I don't wanna pick out one, you know, one company, but that kind of thing where homes or apartments are being, we know the impact that that has on local rental markets and on affordability for the people there. There's a lot of information available. I, I think anyone who wants to travel needs to read about the ethics of traveling and what is the way to reduce the negative impact on the people there. We always think, well, I'm going to spend money. It must be beneficial, not necessarily if all your money is going to some global chain that is headquartered, who knows where, <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:58:27 Um, so, so think about, uh, that impact third, that as we are so excited about seeing this place in that, um, to again realize that, um, it is unethical to, to use anyone or to instrumentalize any person as, as just like something for, for our benefit and our pleasure. Every person we encounter is a person who has their own life and needs. And whether they're someone working in the hotel or someone serving our meal in the restaurant, or someone who is guiding us on a tour, they are, uh, whole people like we are who have the same rights, the same God-given in viability. And are we treating everyone with dignity and respect, or are we trying to use them in a way to serve our needs and, and, uh, uh, increase our own enjoyment? So the, these are general things about the ethics of travel.
Speaker 2 00:59:30 I would also say to be careful about, um, people's stories. So when, when we went to Reza, for example, you know, the site of, of such, uh, tremendous harm and oppression against the Bosnian people, it's really important when you go to a place that is so, uh, our, our emotion. We react in, in such a place, and we can feel frightened. We can obviously feel upset. Um, but we have to remember that, um, it's the people there who have the right to really tell their story and interpret their story. And we need to listen really carefully. There's something in pastoral care called spiritual bypassing. And, and this is something we teach in chaplaincy and spiritual care, which is where sometimes if, if you feel you, you see something very sad or someone in pain or someone suffering as Muslims, we might say, oh, oh yes, that's terrible.
Speaker 2 01:00:34 But, uh, you know, it's a test from Allah or, uh, you know, inshallah, it'll be okay in the end or something like this. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it's where we don't really wanna hear what they're experiencing. It makes us afraid. So we use this religious language to kind of avoid it and to not have to listen. So we need, generally, in all of our lives, we need to be attentive to that and learn how to be good listeners and how not to rush to run away from our own feelings of fear or sadness by, by shutting down other people. I mean, they have, they wanna talk. When we went to Rebe, we went to, you know, this new beautiful housing complex for the, for widowed women. You know, one of the women came out and, and she, you know, she started, she's probably told the story a thousand times about how she only had one son and her son was murdered.
Speaker 2 01:01:34 And, you know, she began crying. And she's, she's telling that, and you can feel among people, you know, some people are starting to get uncomfortable. They don't know how to listen to that. They don't know what to do. Right. And, but that is, I mean, she has a right to tell that story. And if she wants to tell it 1000, 2003 thou, that is her. Right. And if we're going there, we're not going there just to take pictures and walk away. If we're going there, we need to be present with her as long as she wants to tell us that. So, so I would say that's, um, you know, my final piece of advice and all of these things I've, I've learned the hard way I've made, you know, we've all made mistakes. Absolutely. And so I just try to, um, you know, share some of the things that I've learned as I've encountered people in, in different situations like this.
Speaker 1 01:02:29 Well, thank you so much, professor, and I think this is a great thing to end, uh, on our an that perhaps we're talking about, especially Islam on the edges, which does invite this notion of travel and people are excited visiting the, the edges of the Muslim world is to think about the ethics of travel and perhaps even developing that as a scholarly agenda and, and the research project, the ethics of travel, I think definitely is something that we need to think about. So once again, professor, thank you so much for your time and for sharing and opening up with us about your experience in Bosnia.
Speaker 2 01:03:07 I've really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you.
