Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:03 Hello in. My name is Ami Sinic, and I am the host of the Islam on the Edges Channel of the Madan Podcast. In this episode, I talk with Dr. Asim Rahi about the racialization and securitization of Muslims after nine 11. Dr. Rahi is the research director at the Cage Advocacy Group in the United Kingdom. He talked about the struggle for justice for the oppressed and unjustly accused during the war and terror. He highlighted the abusers of power and the breakdown in the rule of law that emerged in western liberal democracies. Post nine 11. A deep contemplation of the Quran has led Dr. Kohi to emphasize justice, resist the neoliberal order and praise, the virtue of disobedience in the face of grave injustice and oppression. Welcome to episode nine of Islam on the Edge's Channel of the Medan Podcast, a project by the Ebu Man Center for Global Islamic Studies at George Mason University in Virginia.
Speaker 1 00:01:10 It is often said that nine 11 changed everything. The former Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, the Unindicted War criminal, Tony Blair said, after the seven seven 2005 bombings in London, the rules of the game have changed. This prompt provided the title for Dr. Asim Che's First book, rules of the Game, the Tension, deportation Disappearance. In this episode, Dr. ACI and I discussed how nine 11 and the ensuing atmosphere of anti-Muslim propaganda in Western democracies negatively impacted the rule of law in his Native England and worldwide. He chronicles some of the most egregious violations of the rule of law during the so-called war and terror. Dr. Cohi reflects on his work with a cage advocacy group in the UK Cage, and I'm quoting from their website, works closely with survivors of abuse and mistreatment across the globe, documenting their abuse and enabling them to take action and access due process.
Speaker 1 00:02:15 End. Out of these experiences, Dr. Khi developed a strong ethic of advocating for abused and mistreated detainees. He also refuses to play the condemnation game whereby Muslims are often called to condemn violent acts, allegedly perpetrated by other Muslims in the name of Islam. Once while listening to the Friday prayer sermon or huah with his children, he heard the imam or prayer leader calling for absolute obedience to authorities even if they were unjust. This event led him to contemplate the virtue of disobedience in the face of grave injustices. A few words about our guest, Dr. As graduated in law specializing in international law and Islamic law. He completed his PhD in International Conflict Analysis from the University of Kent. He is the research director at the Advocacy Group Cage, and since 2003 has specialized in investigating the impact of counter-terrorism practices worldwide. He has published a wide range of NGO reports, academic journals and articles.
Speaker 1 00:03:26 He has written Rules of the Game Detention, deportation Disappearance that was published in 2009, A virtue of disobedience published in 2019, and is the editor of the book I Refuse to Condemn, resisting Racism in Times of National Security, was published in 2020. His forthcoming book with Dr. Wala Kui, when Only God Can See will focus on the Way Islam is practiced by political prisoners under the custody of the United States and Egypt. Since 2010, he has been advising legal teams involved in defending terrorism trials in the US and and Gu Bay Cuba. I hope you'll enjoy this episode, and we are happy to welcome Dr. Asim. Thank you so much for agreeing to speak, um, to our podcast. So we want to start immediately. I want to start with something I don't usually ask. I don't usually ask, uh, a kind of a personal biographical question of my, of my guests, but I think in your case, especially and for the things that we're discussing, it would be quite useful. So if you could tell us a bit about yourself and how you came to work on the issues that define your scholarship and activism.
Speaker 2 00:04:50 Sure. Thank you and so much for inviting me onto onto your podcast. It's, uh, it's a real privilege and honor for me. And just a little bit about my background. I'm British born, um, by Pakistani origin. Um, both my parents are from Pakistan. We've, uh, my family, um, especially my dad's side, I've been in the UK since the late fifties. So we've got a pretty long history, uh, over here. Um, you know, my, all of my uncles and aunts and my siblings and parents who are, we're all, we're all based here. And so, you know, UK is home. And I think it's important to say that because I think it, um, it really determines so much of how I've thought about myself, my work, my life, and even my faith. Uh, but yeah, the UK is, is is very, very much home. And, you know, I think like most people, you kind of have go into that mode of the ideal immigrant. You know, my parents were very much into education. They sent my brothers and I to one of the best schools in the uk. Um, some excellent opportunities.
Speaker 2 00:05:57 And, you know, effectively I, I got into law. Um, I didn't do brilliantly in my studies early on, but somehow accidentally fell into law, um, because I wasn't allowed to do English literature as a, as a dare. You know, there's only certain professions that you are, uh, permitted to do, but you know, ham that I worked out in my favor. So I studied law and I thought I was gonna become a corporate lawyer, was the, it was the subjects that I really did best at at university, and I was very much on route to do that. In fact, my masters I'd applied for all my modules to be in corporate law subjects, and nine 11 happened during my degree, before my master's even started. And I, I saw the, the images of men being detained in orange jumpsuits at Guantanamo Bay and just the sight of that.
Speaker 2 00:06:46 And it was just by father that I was studying international law during that period, uh, as one of my elective modules and kind of reading about the law, understanding how the, the, the morality of an international legal order works. Um, it struck me that, you know, what was happening to these Muslims, you know, ostensibly it looked like they were all Muslim, and it turned out to be, uh, true later on, they, um, that they were being impacted in a way that was truly harmful. And I came, I guess I came to a realization that I, I couldn't spend the rest of my life working in a, in a large corporate office while I was seeing these things. And I, that largely comes from my parents, you know, they always brought, brought my brothers and I up to be very much aware of what's going on in the world to care for Muslims.
Speaker 2 00:07:33 Um, you know, Bosnia was a huge part of my upbringing. A lot of my friends went and fought as militias, um, out there to help the Bosnian near Bosnia people during the nineties. I was still too young. But, um, it was, it was a big part of our life. And, you know, my father is somebody who very much believes in, um, you know, social justice, justice issues. So yeah, I think it all just came together with nine 11 in the war and terror that, you know, allowed, prepared me to, to try and try and go down a different route than what's traditionally known for, for my people. <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:08:09 Yeah, I I'm sure nine 11 is gonna feature prominently discussion. I think it was a, you know, really life-changing event for many of us. I remember I came to the United States in the year 2000, just one year before nine 11. And, um, I could see even during that short span that I was in the US before nine 11, how the country changed dramatically before and after. And, um, after nine 11, obviously the United States and its allies unleashed an unspeakable amount of violence against Muslim countries, but also against Muslims as individuals against their bodies, their dignity. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So how did nine 11, I think you already mentioned a little bit of that, but maybe just expand on it. How did it impact your work and how did you come to defend the de detainees in Gu tmo?
Speaker 2 00:09:02 Yeah. Um, well, as I said, like, you know, literally the, the first day that I started my masters, um, on the day that I enrolled, I went straight to the law department, found the, the office of Dr. Matthew Craven, and said, I know this is only the first day, but I've decided I want to do my dissertation on Guantanamo Bay <laugh>, and you supervise me. Um, and so that kind of like, yeah, I mean, he was, he was like really surprised and he was like, oh, okay, fine. Um, come and sit down and, you know, here's a whole list of books you can read, um, to prepare you to, to study this because it's a completely new area. Nobody's really done much research on it yet, so you're gonna be finding things out for yourself a lot. But he goes, I'm, I'm, I'm glad, um, to see that you're enthusiastic about this.
Speaker 2 00:09:48 And, um, yeah, it, it was, it was such a departure from everything that I thought mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, about myself. Um, but it, it was coupled with so many other things. So around that time, just a couple of months in one of my, you know, kind of very close family friends, you know, somebody who I looked up to as like an older brother, uh, his name's Barbara Ahmed, you know, somebody who, you know, like I mentioned, he was one of the people who went to Bosnia to fight to help the Bosnia people who he'd kinda give these Friday halaka where he would tell us about what's going on in the Muslim world. So we were very close to him, very connected to him. He got arrested, uh, and put on an extradition warrant to the us and his case became one of the most famous in the uk.
Speaker 2 00:10:35 And that's really what tipped me over into knowing that I had to go down this route in my life. Because, you know, we knew him very well. We knew that this is somebody who had made a positive contribution to our community, who had raised a whole kind of generation of younger men than himself who'd given a lot of his time, even as a very young man, even as a teenager. He would kind of like tell us stories about the Sahba. He would kind of engender this love of Islam in us, tell us about the Uma. And here he was now being accused of being involved in terrorism. And I just didn't sit right with the image that I knew of him.
Speaker 1 00:11:11 Where was he arrested? Was
Speaker 2 00:11:13 It in the uk? In the uk In the uk yeah, in the uk. He was put on an extradition warrant in the us So they, they accused him of material support for terrorism. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Cause he had a website that kind of gave information about the Jihad Afghanistan prior to nine 11 taking place. Um, and even actually when his final sentencing hearing took place, judge Janet Hallett in, in Connecticut, she was very condemnatory of the US government. She said that the US government should not be permitted to just go around calling every single incident of conflict in the Muslim world as terrorism. Sometimes there are forms of legitimate <inaudible>. And it was quite a remarkable judgment considering the history of the war terror. And that tells you a little bit about Barbara and about how, you know, ethical a life that he lived, that he was even able to convince a judge in the US of who he was or who he is and what he was about. Um, especially in those days. So that really, I, I think, you know, when you, when you have a friend who's personally affected in that way, and you meet their family, it can't, you can't help but wanna do something about it. And there were so many stories at that time, especially of people who are being detained unlawfully and, um, yeah, had a, had a profound effect on me.
Speaker 1 00:12:27 Yeah. And I think the same stories we hear in the United States too, after nine 11, there were many Muslims, especially of, you know, also Pakistanian Arab origin in New York City area, but elsewhere, also in the United States who were detained or deported or sometimes maybe had minor immigration violation, that until then, and even now, people would overlook and would not pay much attention to have suddenly become reasons for not only deportation, but for basically people losing their livelihoods, their families. So many people had been affected that way. And I think this is also important to highlight because a lot of attention and rightly so, has been given to those who have been wrongfully detained in the war on terror as supporters of terrorism, alleged supporters of terrorism. But I don't think much attention has been given so far to people who had nothing to do with anything like that, who were detained simply because of their background and their origin, country of origin.
Speaker 1 00:13:36 And, uh, the war and terror was used as a pretext to basically deport those people to, or to put them in jail or to criminalize them in certain way mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, that destroyed not only their own lives, but lives of their families and so on. And I haven't seen much actually written about it. There is quite a bit about, uh, the combatants or people who were allegedly providing material support to terrorism, like what you just said, but not about this. And that was only exacerbated then in the lead up to the invasion of Iraq in 2003. And then I think in the uk we see that then intensifying after seven, seven, you know, after the, uh, the, the, the July 7th bombings and what happened. And so we've seen that deterioration of the rule of law in the United States and in the uk And you write about this in your book, rules of the Game, the tension, deportation, this disappearance. So can you tell us about this book and give us some highlights? And especially, I, I, I think, where did you get the title of the book?
Speaker 2 00:14:45 <laugh>. <laugh>? Yeah, sure. Um, actually my wife, she was the one who thought of the title, um, and it was, it was taken from Tony Blair, who after seven seven said that the rules of the game have changed. And, and you heard statements like this coming out, even after nine 11, Kofa Black, um, you know, senior CIA officials said that there was, um, you know, before nine 11, there was after nine 11 and after nine 11, the gloves came off, right? So mm-hmm. <affirmative> and all of them are signaling the same thing, the same idea, which is we are not going to respect the rule of law in the way that we treat our national security. Now when it comes to, um, reading out terrorists when it comes to, um, targeting Muslims that we don't care about what the rule of law has to say here, that we'll do what we need to.
Speaker 2 00:15:36 And of course, that resulted in a huge amount of violence against Muslims. So rules of the game, the, that book came out of, um, the first like five years of my field work mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, which took me all over the world. So, you know, I'd done investigations in Pakistan, in Bosnia, in the ho, across the horn of Africa and UK and the US and, and so many different, uh, countries around the world. And what I was noticing were that there was so many interconnections between the way that states were operating and the way that they were removing rights from their citizens. So, um, for example, both the UK and Canada were using immigration appeals commissions in order to have cases against individuals that didn't require going through the criminal law system. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So they want us to kinda effectively place people under house arrest, but they didn't wanna, they didn't have enough evidence to maybe put them through a court process.
Speaker 2 00:16:38 So what they would do instead is that they would just say, okay, fine, we're putting on a house arrest. It's, it's not, we're not, we're not arresting you, we're not detaining you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we're just kinda treating this as a kind of a temporary national security measure. Mm. And so you would then have to fight these guys in a system of secret courts, and you'd then found that was being implemented in Denmark, it was being implemented elsewhere around the world. And so these, these states were teaching one another how to abuse the law in order to effectively detain as many people as possible without having recourse to a proper system. And so it's that interconnectivity that I was trying to show whether it was different ways that torture was being used. So, for example, at the time in those days, um, the Americans were making a big show of saying that, Hey, look, you know, serious part of this axis of evil and, and libya's as well.
Speaker 2 00:17:36 And I try and show through the book how these kind of overt statements didn't match the reality of, say, for example, the outsourcing of torture. So, so many individuals were sent by the Western world to be tortured in Syrian prisons. So you're ostensibly saying that, oh, you know, we're, we're in this conflict with one another, but you are using each other's security agencies to actually cooperate with one another. And so, yeah, as I said that the whole book is really a way of showing different types of national security policy and legislation, but focusing on the stories of the people who were affected mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I used their individual stories to show how this, their, their lives were impacted and harmed by connecting that to the law and policy at all times. And then showing that the way that all the countries in the world came together to keep this kinda network of abuse, uh, continuing. So that's, that was really the emphasis of the first book.
Speaker 1 00:18:34 Yeah. And it's quite interesting to think that the very basis on which at least western liberal societies, uh, are established and on, on which they continue to, to, to live has, uh, been found to be wanting that is to say inadequate in what they believe was a fight against terrorism. Or maybe it was a realization that a faster way of gaining results was to do away with some of the legal and constitutional protection that exists in constitutional liberal democracies. But what does that tell us about the wider society? And especially for you growing, you know, you were born in the uk, were born in England, you were grew up there. How does that, you know, impact one's relationship to his own society when you realize that the values which you, uh, were educated on, which you, uh, grew up in, are all of a sudden seen as basically dispensable, or that they can be easily done away with for the sake of expediency?
Speaker 2 00:19:52 Yeah, absolutely. It's such a important contemplation. Cause you, you are fed this lie that you belong equally, that, you know, within a, a liberal democratic order that, you know, all citizenships provide you an equal platform from which you can then operate within society. And what the war on Terror did is that it brought very much into far, you know, kind of sharp, focused attention how, you know, that was always a lie. And don't get me wrong, I think many of us, you know, were aware that these were not perfect societies. You know, we knew there was a lot of racism, especially against black folk, both in the UK and the US. And, you know, you know, especially during the eighties, I remember running down the stream being chased by kind Nazi thug. Um, but my black friends were running alongside me. And so there was already an architecture upon which the war and terror could build, you know, in America, it's the ral state in the uk it was this kind of like liberal notion of, uh, acceptance while at the same time, uh, institutionalizing all manner of racisms through law and policy. So these, these things are, they're always like confetti when they're, when they're used. It's kind of, it's just very, very superficial. The war on terror was then the loss of any form of humility about it. Like, or, you know, actually even like the, the whole superficial facade kind of fell away now. It was just purely a case of we actually don't care anymore how you feel. We're just gonna act.
Speaker 1 00:21:31 Yeah. That must be destabilizing and disorienting in many ways. Right?
Speaker 2 00:21:36 Um, I think for me, it was the opposite. I felt, I felt that, um, I was happier knowing that the mask had slipped <laugh> and operating in an environment where they were perpetuating this idea that everyone belongs equally. It was, it's easier for me to operate that way, knowing full well that, um, they really don't care. And, um, they really don't want you to belong. And, and this was coming across the whole of the, the, the divide. So, you know, like the conservatives didn't want you full stop, you know, kinda neocons and whoever, they just want you out. But the liberals, they don't mind you being here. They don't mind you being a Muslim. They don't mind you being brown. They just don't want you to practice your faith in the way that you wanna practice it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So both of them are types of evisceration. Right. But you get, you, you get hammered from both sides. So in terms of being true and being authentic in your belief, in your politics, in your, uh, ideas, in your own philosophy of life and life and the world that you live in, it's very, very difficult in that environment to, to be genuine. Yeah. Um, I was very lucky. I'd have an amazing support structure around me. You know, I was, I'm involved in with an organization called Cage. Uh, yeah. Tell me
Speaker 1 00:22:55 More about Cage, please.
Speaker 2 00:22:56 Yeah, I mean, it's a campaign group that started in 2003. So this year in Charlotte will be 20 years of, of our operation. Um, congratulations, <laugh>. I mean, I wish it was congratulations. I know. So sad. But no, it's, it's still amazing that we're still here after all the, the, the pressure that we've been under from different kind of agencies and forces involved.
Speaker 1 00:23:16 I, you're person need the voice. So, I
Speaker 2 00:23:18 Mean, and Charla, we're just trying to do our bit. And, and that's really where it comes from, which is to have a response, a Muslim led response to the global war and terror mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And in that, in that regard, it's quite a unique organization. And, but having an organization like that really helped me because critiquing government policy, speaking out against politicians, speaking out against the police, did not result in me losing my job. Right. Like, there's so many people who want to say things, but they're scared. They're scared and frightened of what the security state is able to do to them. And of course, it's frightening. I'm not, I wouldn't, I wouldn't deny that. I, I think that's, it's, it's a very real threat, and I think people are right to be fearful of what the state is capable of. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but then it, it just comes down to the question of, well, what do you want outta life?
Speaker 2 00:24:07 And I think that's kinda the philosophy, part of the philosophical, part of the global war terror, which is, are you as a Muslim just simply happy to swim along, hoping that the violence that you see doesn't come at your door directly in any way? Or are you somebody who would rather speak out to try and resist the, the, the tide or everything that's coming at your community to try and maybe even reverse it, if at all that's possible. And, you know, unfortunately, I'm one of those people who's a little bit more skeptical about reversal of, um, of all of these policies once they become entrenched in, in, in law. But, um, you know, at least, at the very least, to, to have the, the feeling and that spirit of attempting to change, you know, knowing that the result is always with a los. So, you know, that's, that's the thing.
Speaker 2 00:25:03 And I think that's where a lot of this comes from. I don't, I don't feel that fear in the sense that, of course, you know, like, we all feel anxiety in this, these types of violence situations. And I do, uh, and I've written about that myself, um, but I, I feel like gave me something where I didn't feel inhibited by what the state is able to do. And having the support of a, of an organization like Cage, having the support of my community, having support of my family, was really the backbone to being able to take, hold the state of account, say the things out loud, that maybe other Muslims were a little bit too frightened to say.
Speaker 1 00:25:43 Yeah. And I mean, thank you for all the work that you do because, uh, you know, on the other side of the Atlantic here in the United States, I remember after nine 11, the United States government passed, uh, this legislation that came to be known as the Patriot Act, which, um, pretty much, uh, took away many of the civil rights and liberties that Americans took for granted for such a long time. And especially those who are seen as in some way implicated, you know, in the war on terror. And that would usually mean Muslims and people who look like Muslims, you know, <laugh>. Uh, which, you know, when you say people who look like Muslims, most Islam is a global religion. There is no <laugh> single way of how Muslims look, but in the minds of the framers of those, of those legislations. Now, you did mention in your earlier answer about the wars and death that resulted, you know, outta the war and terror. I don't know if you've seen, um, I'm sure you have Watson Institute at Brown University just a few days ago. This is part of their costs of war project. And they say, and I'm reading directly now from the report, it says, the total death toll in the post nine 11 war zones of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, and Yemen, could be at least 4.5 to 4.6 million.
Speaker 2 00:27:09 Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:27:09 <affirmative> and counting, though the precise mortality figure remains unknown. Some of these people were killed in the fighting, but far more especially children have been killed by the reverberating effects of wars such as the spread of disease. These latter indirect deaths, estimated 3.6 or 3.7 million and related health problems have resulted from the post nine 11 wars, destruction of economies, public services, and the environment, indirect deaths grow in scale over time. So basically they're putting, based on their own research, the number of people that died in these, uh, five countries as a result of the war and terror at almost 5 million people, 4.5 to 4.6 with 3.6 to 3.7 being indirect debts, which also means that this is something that was highlighted in the Washington Post, that about 900,000 people, almost a million people were directly killed in military operations by the United States and, and, and their allies in the war and terror. That is a huge, I mean, it's, it's a such a disproportionate retribution for the acts of nine 11, which of course, were horrendous and were denounced by most Muslims that were going to talk more about the whole issue of denouncing and condemning and so on. Yeah. Later. But, um, I'm sure you've seen this report that came out few days ago. What was your reaction to it, and how did you,
Speaker 2 00:28:44 I mean, I mean, the, the numbers are staggering. I, I might have some, I might take some issue with, say, for example, looking at kind of historical list issues and placing them directly in the line of sight of America. So for example, Syria, just as an example, it's a much older issue, um, that, you know, in terms of the infrastructure and whatever else there, but that's, that's quibbling. But I think actually for me, don't get me wrong, the cost of war project is a very, very important project, and I really appreciate all the effort that they go through to do that. I, in my working life, I'm less concerned by the numbers, the overall numbers, because there is a, there is a trend in, in the work that we do in the kind of civil society space, almost like we have to constantly prove that we have been harmed and affected enough for our lives to be taken seriously as Muslims, that we have to prove that somehow the violence against us is overly egregious.
Speaker 2 00:29:51 Um, if, if Samuel Ian's case in the US was the only case that ever happened, it would be enough to bring down the entire edifice of counter-terrorism policy for every single Muslim to hold themselves up and say, we should have supported this from the very beginning, that we should have been out on the streets every single day, that we should have done every single thing that was in our power to defend this man. If that was the only case ever, if Arfi Sid's case was the only case ever, if Dar Han's case was the only case ever. Right. We get into this, I think the, the problem with metrics, these types of metrics is that, I'm not saying that that's what the cost of World Project are doing, but just for ourselves, the way that we think intellectually and philosophically about what we're going through, that we should always think about the smaller cases.
Speaker 2 00:30:44 Like even somebody who lives a completely ordinary every single day life. And the biggest problem in his life is that he gets stopped at the border when he travels. That's enough for us to want to be concerned enough, us to be angry, angry <laugh> right? To be, we, we, we should be angry about these things, but the we, but the violence against us has become so normalized, and now we treat it as normal. So when we say, for example, oh, I'm gonna get to the airport four hours in advance, or five hours in advance because I'm worried about secondary screening, we accommodate our re oppression in our own lives. We accommodate their re oppression of us. And I think that's where the bigger problem lies, that in it's in the everyday violence, is that we have started to accommodate them constantly, because we also don't have an imagination of what a, a real and genuine relationship with our fellow nationals might look like outside of this highly securitized and racialized space. And that's what concerns me, really.
Speaker 1 00:31:53 No, absolutely. I think this is a really good methodology also to look at, is that injustice against a single person constitutes an injustice against everyone in society because, um, that could easily translate to another person and another, and actually this is how it happens <laugh>, right? It's just the, the state with its own power sort of replicates that form of violence that it has created and then applies it then to a number of different people. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Now, there is something I've hinted at, um, in, in my earlier question, and that is that after nine 11, especially after nine 11, there was an expectation that all Muslims everywhere had to condemn any statement or act that was somehow connected to Islam, and that led to, or possibly resulted in violence. At some point, it became ridiculous. Uh, you would have every small act committed by Muslim indi individuals, or, you know, what's being alleged, to have been committed by Muslims condemned by a large spectrum of Muslim leaders in organizations. No such expectation was placed collectively on any other group of people. I assume this is what led you to edit that volume. That is actually, our listeners cannot see it, but I can see <laugh> you on camera and it's, uh, behind you on your bookshelf. I refuse to condemn. Can you tell us more about this book? Why do you refuse to condemn and what, and what do you refuse to condemn? <laugh>?
Speaker 2 00:33:26 So I've had another, a few kind of media experiences in my life where I could be talking about something related to national security or terrorism or whatever it might be, war. And at some point the interview will ask me whether or not ISIS or individual may be carried out an terrorism or violence as prefer. And, and normally for the vast majority of times that that question has been asked of me, I refuse to, to just simply answer the question. In fact, I will often question the premise of the question itself and say, and ask them like, why they feel the need to ask me that. What is it about me mm-hmm. <affirmative> that made them think to themselves, I should ask this person whether or not he believes that this stuff is okay. Right. And the inevitable answer of that, of course, is that I'm a Muslim <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:34:25 And so because I'm a Muslim that I must have some locus that I have to, in order for them to, to feel comfortable in themselves, I have to prove to them that I do not ascribe to a certain set of actions or beliefs so that they can sleep well at night knowing that they met me. Right. That's really what's going on. That's the dynamic. It's the question behind the question mm-hmm. <affirmative> that I'm interested in. So it's not really about condemning because, you know, my personal view of ISIS is that they're <inaudible>, right? That's like, that's my own personal theological view of the kinda particular belief system that they have adopted, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But when a white person asks me that they have no idea about any of these things, they have no idea what the haage are, or you know, what their traits and characteristics are.
Speaker 2 00:35:14 They don't care about any of that kinda stuff, right? All they wanna know is, am I truly safe? You know, can they, can they rely on me to kind of condemn this stuff? Because otherwise there might be this question that, that hangs over my head. And it's that, it's the question that hangs like an execution as acts over the head of every single Muslim. Yes. Because if you don't answer their question, then by assumption, they say, well, if you don't condemn, then you must condone, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that is their response every single time, or for us, we can just simply say, no, I don't condemn because I think you are racist and you have a problem. You have a problem that when you meet people, your first assumption is, oh, hello, how are you doing? How is your life? What are you about? It's not that it's, can I trust this person?
Speaker 2 00:36:07 That is a problem that exists inside you, and it comes from your philosophical roots, it comes from the society that you've structured. It comes from your own liberalism that makes you think that way. And they haven't come to terms with that yet. And that's why I wanted to get together a collection of, of the, the 1920 scholars that we have and activists that are in the book, and get them to write about their experiences, not, but not from the perspective of, well, this was a situation I was, I was in and I was asked to condemn, but actually like, these are people that I know have been on the front lines of resisting this type of narrative, showing younger activists, younger scholars that there is a pathway to resist. There is a pathway through our experiences, through the way that we have behaved when we've been asked that question of how to say no, how to question them, how to put it back on them.
Speaker 2 00:36:57 And it's been, it was really amazing actually, kinda, I heard back from so many young people, so many students, so many young activists who also the same thing that, you know, we've been in this situation so many times and we didn't know it was even possible to refuse the line of questioning that were asked. And, and, and if that was the value in the book, then really, you know, I don't really care about sales or anything like that. All I cared about was that our people felt they had something that they could turn to as, as something that supported them.
Speaker 1 00:37:29 Yeah. So it was actually, uh, some sort of a piece of the resistance, you know, like, or act. Can you give us maybe an example or two from the book? What specifically stood out? You said you learned a lot and you heard from so many people who have been put in this position. Can you give us maybe one or two examples that really stood out to you, or maybe from which we could also derive some useful strategy? Because even though the pressure today is probably much less than it was 5, 10, 15 years ago, um, when it comes to this issue of condemning terrorism, um, I have no doubt that at some point in time there's going to be, again, pressure on the Muslims because this has been a periodic kind of cyclical situation. So maybe give us one or two examples that stood out to you that may also be a good strategy for people to adopt in these kind of situation.
Speaker 2 00:38:22 Yeah, sure. I mean, I said there's so many essays. Um, you know, one in your context that really stood out is, um, ho Kabi, uh, who's an American Iranian who did this kind of really famous TV interviewer. She was asked about Iran's nuclear program, and she kind of completely turns the question back on the questionnaires, you know, and like, you know, kind of asks them about, well, what about kinda America's violence throughout the world? You know, let's talk about that a little bit. You know, I'm much more concerned about that, you know, as somebody who lives here then, you know, in this kind of phantom potential nuclear program that Iran might have. Uh, and it was really definitely done. And she does it with this kind of almost innocence, but very calculated as well as, as well at the same time, which really disarms them.
Speaker 2 00:39:10 And they're not ready for it. Uh, because, you know, she wears the hijab. You know, they have this, all these assumptions about her that you can tell as you watch the video. And you know, her essay's great, because what she does is, is she takes us through the morning before the interview, during the interview, and then after the interview about like, everything that she went through. And it's such a great example of how, um, easily you can actually deconstruct what they're saying and put it back on them, make them feel uncomfortable for asking the question in the first place. You know, other examples include like the, uh, uh, the rapper Loki, he, he writes one of the essays in, in the book, and he talks about being stopped at a, at a port, you know? So in the uk if you get stopped, you have to answer, um, certain questions.
Speaker 2 00:39:58 And again, turning it back on the police when they're stopping him and asking all these questions about, well, what are you up to? What are you doing? You know, who are you with? That kind of thing. Kinda just letting them know that, why are you asking these questions? What purpose do these questions serve? You know, who are they really for? And that's when they start getting really agitated. When I get stopped at borders by police and they ask me like, all these ridiculous questions, often one of the things that they always say that this is a suspicion to stop. You're not in any kind of suspicion. I'm like, yeah, but if, if I, if I don't answer your question, I'm breaking the law. Right? It's an under what's known as Schedule seven of the Terrorism Act 2000. If you don't answer a question, you have committed an act of terrorism.
Speaker 2 00:40:44 So you don't have any Yeah. And you have no right to a lawyer in that circumstance. And that used to be the law, but now they've changed it. So you can have a lawyer, but it takes so long for the lawyer to get to you that people just, they just do the interview by themselves. Uh, more often than not, you know, you have to literally run them through the way that processes of racism work. Because I'm like, well, okay, if this was suspicious, what was it about me <laugh> that made you think that I should be stopped? They were like, well, you know, certain people, they, they, they fly to certain countries. Ah, right. So there are certain countries that when you use this terrorism legislation that you think are more terroristic, is that, is that what you're saying there? And then you start more and more uncomfortable because the only hole down when, well, you're brown and you have a Muslim name, so we thought you might be a problem.
Speaker 2 00:41:37 Right. That's literally the only refuge that they have left. And so this whole, this idea of this condemnation culture is tied inextricably to what the western world has established its own central identity as within liberalism, right. Which is this idea of the perfect citizen. And the perfect citizen is one that irates themselves completely and becomes almost like an automaton. Um, so you are allowed certain trappings, so you're allowed your skin color because you can't do anything about that. It would take a, a lot of hydrogen peroxide, an unhealthy amount Yeah. To, to help you with that particular problem. The melanin that you have is accepted just about mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what the real problem is, is how you distinguish yourself in society, how you don't fit within the norms of what they, what they believe. So they'll say things, police will say things to you like, well, you know, um, why don't you drink alcohol?
Speaker 2 00:42:35 Like, I know I have a lot of, we have lots of Muslim friends who drink alcohol. Why don't you do that? You know, are you telling me that they're bad Muslims now for doing that? Right. So these are all vectors that they use to establish what ultimately your dangerousness mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's all a pathology. Yeah. They wanna see what, what are the things that make you dangerous to them and their own identity of themselves. Like, if you want to be here, we wanna know that you believe and you think, and you behave in certain ways that make us comfortable with us allowing you to be here. Right. Which is the central point. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:43:12 Why can't you just be like everybody else, you know? Right. <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:43:16 Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:43:17 Those kinda things. I've heard so many people in their experiences. One of the famous cases in the United States was that just, uh, a little bit before the, uh, invasion of Iraq mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there was this big operation by the FBI where they arrested a lot of people, uh, many of whom were either connected to Iraq or Iraqi background. And, uh, specifically I was in, uh, upstate New York doing my PhD at the time at Syracuse University. And, uh, one morning I turned on the TV and I saw that there was this big, what they call on tv, like anti-terrorist operation in, in Syracuse, New York, where they arrested a number of people, uh, early in the morning. They went and more than I think a hundred Muslim families were visited by the fbi. Uh, a lot of people, most people didn't know their rights, so they actually let people in, you know, like, good Muslims, oh, come on in and, you know, do you need something?
Speaker 1 00:44:14 And, and they start asking questions. And I, uh, I talked to, um, a friend of mine was actually questioned by the, the fbi, and they basically asked questions, do you pray five times a day? How often do you go to the mosque? I mean, there's nothing to do with anything. Right. But they want to establish against the baseline, uh, where they want to place you. And, um, uh, one of the people that was arrested was, uh, Dr. Er, maybe you've heard of his case, of course. Yes. Yes. And, uh, he was a leader of the local Muslim community, and he had this organization called Help the Needy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, because at that time, Iraq was under the UN sanctions, and we know that a lot of people suffered there. They didn't have medication, especially children and infants and so on. And he was sending, I believe, through Jordan, it was a lot of humanitarian aid to Iraq, and they arrested him for, among other things, violating the UN sanctions <laugh>. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:45:13 <affirmative>. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:45:14 Of course. Um, but it was portrayed as a terrorist case. In the end, what he was put in jail for had nothing to do with terrorism. Uh, he was a medical doctor. They sort of found him guilty of, I don't know, malpractice or defrauding, um, health insurance in the United States, things like that. And spent a long time. He, he came out, actually, he's outta jail now. I believe he spent most of his time in Supermax prison. Yeah. I mean, even if we assume that he defrauded Medicare or whatever it is that they say, people usually don't end up in Supermax prison. So it was obvious that it was punitive, that it was meant to send shows through the community, which it did, by the way. I know how people in the community felt at that time. And so I have also independently, uh, reach that same position that you, that you hold. I refuse to condemn. I just don't want, if somebody asks me at any point in time, do I condemn violence committed by this? And that. I just don't wanna answer that question. I especially don't wanna answer that question as, as a Bosnian Muslim.
Speaker 1 00:46:22 Yeah. Cause of everything. And
Speaker 2 00:46:23 They should be apologizing to you for the arms embargo.
Speaker 1 00:46:26 Exactly. I mean, everywhere I go, I should be like, yeah, we're sorry. Oh, okay. Oh, we're sorry. Okay. You know, I mean, um, but yeah, that's, that's, um, that's how it is. So I want to now kind of shift our conversation to another book that you wrote. And, um, I have to tell you, this is my favorite virtue of disobedience. Uh, if there was one book that somebody asked me, is there a book that you wish you wrote? I would say that's the one. But I'm still glad that you wrote it because Exactly. In many ways, it encapsulates many of the thoughts and ideas that I've had over the years about these issues. And I'm so glad that you wrote this book and that people can read it today. It's so rich. And the book definitely deserves a separate discussion on its own. And I'm sure you've done many presentations in this discussions in this book. Uh, but tell us more about it, it's main ideas and why you thought it was so important to write it.
Speaker 2 00:47:22 Sure. Thank you. Really, that means a, a great deal to me coming from you Bar La So in 2017, I took a sabbatical from my work at Cage. So I was still doing some of my legal consultancy work that I was doing just so I could pay the pills. But from, uh, kind of my activist work, I, I asked the team if I could maybe take a little bit of time off to, to read, to think, to contemplate. I didn't have a plan to write a book that year. It was only to read. So Ham did, I managed to read about A1 70 books that year. Cause I really wanted to just take stock of having been in the field for about 15 years. So you said Yeah, a 70, a hundred that, that year. So
Speaker 1 00:48:04 A book every two days,
Speaker 2 00:48:06 Something like that. Yeah. And yeah, I really dedicated myself to that, to that task because I just wanted to absorb as much as I could, as as I could while I had the time to do it. I wanted to, and it wasn't just like one type of nonfiction, it was kind of a whole range of different types of books. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I read lots of dystopian novels. I read like lots of different types of literature that year. And it was in Ramadan that year that I, I took my children, I think this was the first drama that we had been to. And the Imam, it's, it's a muah that's close by. And usually the Imam is like, you know, he's, he is, he, he says a lot of stuff that I don't like, but he's generally speaking, not too offensive. But in 2017, you know, it was the height of police killings of young black men in America, of a whole range of other issues that were taking place that required some kind of response from, from people of conscience.
Speaker 2 00:49:04 And when I, when I was sitting in the <inaudible>, the Imam, he said that he was talking about what's going on in America with the, with the riots that were taking place after these police shootings and saying that Muslim Muslims are not permitted to do this because protesting, because it goes against the authority of the state. And the police are a manifestation of the state. So therefore, topol to protest against the police is to protest against the state itself. And that takes you outside of the fault of Islam. This was the first time, cause my, you know, my children, they go to Jamal with me. And so, you know, they were quite young at that time still. I took them out, um, after the hook bed ended. I didn't walk out. One brother did walk out, but I wasn't as brave as he was. I didn't, I didn't walk out like he did.
Speaker 2 00:49:48 But afterwards, it was the first time I sat down with my children and I was very upset. And I said to them that, I've always taught you that your teachers, your parents, your uncles and aunts, anyone who's elder than you, who's in a position of responsibility that you treat them like you treat me or you treat your mother. Right. That they're your guides in life. And I said, for the first time, I need you to understand that sometimes our imam say things and they speak out ignorance. And that was really, um, distressing for me to have to give them that message. They, they were smart enough to understand what he was saying. So they had questions of their own. I take them to protests, so they were confused. Confused because like, we go to protests, we go to protests on Palestine, and we go to Black Lives Matter protests.
Speaker 2 00:50:31 So why is this guy telling us that we can't? And that night I went home, and between the hours of, uh, Isha and fud, I just started writing like notes to myself. And it became, because I was reading the Quran at the same time during the month, it became this conversation that I was having between the Quran and between what I was seeing in the world and reflecting on what I was reading and my activism, uh, over that the, the, the previous 15 years. And, and what developed out of it was this kind of book that that's almost like, um, a philosophical contemplation on what disobedience means, because we're always taught to be obedient. But what happens when we live in societies that are so corrupt, that are so fundamentally unethical that, you know, was there a case to be made that made the ethical thing to do that the Koran thing to do is to be disobedient. And so, you know, I I give a lot of examples from the prophets of the past, from, you know, especially with the story of Ali, but many others showing how the Koran does set this ethic out mm-hmm. <affirmative> that in times of oppression, in times of, uh, volume, that the appropriate response to oppression is disobedience. That it is actually an ethic that we should embody. And that's really Yeah. Where the whole book came from.
Speaker 1 00:51:54 No, that was absolutely amazing. And, uh, my favorite example in the whole book, and really was an eyeopener for me, was that conversation between Mus Ali, between Moses and Pharaoh when he tells him, you know, but didn't we give you all this, you know, you grew up here in our palace and you had all these things. And then Musa comes back with probably the best answer, the best, uh, condemnation that anybody could give in a very short statement. Uh, and I don't wanna spoil it, so I I would leave it to you. Can you explain that to us, and why is this example and that statement by Salam, by Moses to the Pharaoh, so important in understanding this notion of abuse and oppression.
Speaker 2 00:52:42 I mean, this, this is like one of the early conversations that Moala has with, uh, with Pharaoh. So he's just been commanded by LA to literally, you know, take on this big superpower and take on the greatest suppressor, uh, you know, that had ever lived up until that point. And all he's got is himself and his brother Haron. That's it. That's like, they, they literally rock up to the palace with like nothing, no army, nothing, just them two with a command by Allah, which is that to, to ferran, to repent of his ways and to release the children of Israel, the Jews. So that's what mu does. He says, you know, like, you know, I've, I've come here to demand that you, you release the children of Israel. And Owen, as you mentioned, his response was, when, when you, the one that, that I raised in my house, you know, when, when you are the one who committed that murder, right?
Speaker 2 00:53:33 Like, you are so ungrateful. I gave you all these things, and now you are biting the hand that feeds. And the reason why these verses really struck me so much is because I'd already been through this myself. Like, there's this kind famous article in the Daily Mail about me, you know, saying that the title is even something along the lines of like, Arsen Khi is trying to the destroy the country that gave him everything. It was like literally verbatim for owns words, but it wasn't just me. There's a very famous rapper here, his name Stormy. He is like one of the most famous musicians in the uk. And similarly, the press, because he was raising ra, the, the, the issue of racism, the press was saying, oh, he's so ungrateful. We welcomed him from, I think he's from Ghana originally. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, you know, look how he's talking about us.
Speaker 2 00:54:21 There's a, a scholar in Cambridge Privada gpa. She was raising some issues as well. And they said, they did an article about her too, saying, look how ungrateful she's, we welcomed her here and look how she's talking about, you know, our colonial history. So this was a constant tactic that the media were using, and it really struck me that this was so onic right in, its in its essence. And Muis Salaam's response is brilliant because he just says, so is the imprisonment of the children of Israel the thing that you're gonna hold against me? Right? Like, for having grown up in your household. Yeah. It's, it's such an amazing answer because like, he really kind of, for own's distraction tactic, he takes it away completely. He says, forget about your distraction tactic, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like, let's go back to the the issue that I came with, which is your enslavement of these people, of your oppression of them. Um, yeah. It's a really, it's a really remarkable moment, uh, in the Quran.
Speaker 1 00:55:17 It's, it's, and I, I think it, it goes is, is this what you're telling me, all these blessings and all the good stuff that you've given me, is this what you're telling me? While you have enslaved the whole group of people, you know, you have enslaved the whole group of people. Now you wanna tell me, oh, but you know, you, you had access to good education and you had access to healthcare and this and that, you know, and that should keep you silent and quiet while we are pressing the whole groups of people. No, and I think it's such a liberatory and li liberating answer that when you read it and when you see that the Quran actually brings back attention to what really is the crux of the matter here. The cracks of the matter is not that Musa was maybe privileged in that society because he grew up in Pharaoh's household, or that somebody is privileged because, you know, oh, you're privileged, you grew up in the United States, or grew up in the uk and you had access to Oxbridge and to best education and this and that.
Speaker 1 00:56:28 Y you know, the, the thing is there is still systemic oppression going on. And until that is removed, all this is really relevant to that. And so, so that was, when I read it, I was like, phew, man, this is, this is something else. So the whole discussion that you bring in that book. Um, but of course I think this is also more important, even more important because in, like you said, in in the Islamic discourse, even in Islamic theology, there is this notion of almost blind obedience to the authority. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So no matter what they do, and we have even statements in famous manuals of Islamic theology that it says it's not permissible to rebel against the, uh, authority, even if they're unjust and oppressive in this and that, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, even if they con commit this huge amount of oppression and so on.
Speaker 1 00:57:27 And so to see that someone carefully writes a book that actually allows for expression of disobedience is, I think extremely, extremely important. So what other aspects of the book maybe you would like to highlight here, because you are connecting it to many of the struggles that we are going through in our modern societies, and especially in Western societies. You already mentioned Black Lives Matter, um, the struggle for liberation of Palestine, many other issues that are really important. What are some other things that you may highlight from the book that may be useful to our listeners that would hopefully, uh, motivate them to read the book?
Speaker 2 00:58:11 <laugh>? I mean, I think I get to write about one of the, the areas of interest, um, that I have studied and worked on considerably, um, over the last 20 years. And that is on, on violence and political violence. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, I really wanted a space to be able to just talk about this issue in a way that was on my terms, that wasn't responding to somebody else's questions, that wasn't responding to somebody else's accusation, to kinda really put out a morality around this subject matter that made sense to me in the world that I, that I live in. So, you know, I, I mentioned in the book that I'm not a pacifist, I don't moralize on violence in the way that we've been taught to by a liberal discourse on violence, which pretends ostensibly to be pacifist while carrying out massive amounts of violence across the world through the selling of arms, through the carrying out of, uh, oppressive wars, through the, the support, uh, and maintenance of settler colonial states.
Speaker 2 00:59:16 You know, I don't, I don't make any, I don't really hide from my own moral positioning on this, which is that violence is part of the human condition. You know, a Los Panza tells us in the Quran that fighting has been ordained for you, even though it's something that you do not like. So this is, this is something that we know that it's not something natural in the sense of, it's not something that we, we hope for mm-hmm. <affirmative> or that we desire, or that anybody wants to do, or wants to be involved in. But this whole idea that somehow, um, thinking about it, speaking about it, writing about it, uh, understanding the reasons why it takes place is somehow a problem really masks what's actually going on in the world. So, when we think about states, for example, the violence of a settler, colonial apartheid state like Israel, and then we think about resistance strategies by Palestinians, right?
Speaker 2 01:00:10 We're constantly told to frame things in terms of the legitimate state of Israel versus the illegitimate resistance of Palestinians. And all of this really starts to come most this hypocrisy of kinda liberalism's perspective on this with the war in Ukraine. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of, of Russia. I think what they're doing is their intervention in, in Ukraine is unjustified and people have a right to defend themselves. But it's so fascinating to see the kind of articles that are written about foreign militias joining the Ukraine forces and strapping bombs to themselves and blowing bridges up in suicide missions. Right. And how that's praised mm-hmm. <affirmative> within the western media, even though ostensibly it's a suicide bombing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, right. And so when, when you are considering at what points does violence, what, what points is it seen as something that's praiseworthy, you realize that it's, it's nearly always when it's connected to whiteness Mm.
Speaker 2 01:01:15 That the whiter, the, sorry, with the exception of Bosnia, of course, <laugh> <laugh>. So you'll forgive me for saying that. I was gonna say, but that's the No, no, no, but it's an important, it's an important distinction because of course what what reduces bosniac whiteness is your locus to Islam. Absolutely. And that in, and that in itself, like, you know, better than, much better than me in personal experience with, you know, is, is the fundamental, you know, crucial factor mm-hmm. <affirmative> of why the arms embargo was placed upon you by your deaths in the thousands were permitted before anybody thought that, you know, we're very much complicit, you know, and whether or not that was, uh, intentional, not as a conversation for another time. But I think, I think for me, what really brought it home again, you know, as I said, the whole of that month was really unbelievable to double theran.
Speaker 2 01:02:07 That opened my heart in ways, thought about before. In particular, it was the, that talks about the crime that was committed by AB and the companions that was, they killed a group of the croat during the forbidden months. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and this was fascinating for me because, you know, my, my working life, what I do is I represent people who have committed acts of political violence and in, in very, very difficult circumstances. And the IA itself is so amazing when it comes down to the prophesy. Cause the prophecy, Islam himself is angry at the le and the other companions. Like he's not, he's not happy that they've committed this violence. And then Allah says, it's so amazing, the I is what they did is a great sin. That's the first part. The acknowledgement that that, okay, what they've done is not, is not right, this is wrong.
Speaker 2 01:03:00 This is a great sin, in fact. Right. That's how LaSalla frames it. And then Alta gives the context, right. But look at what they're doing. Yeah. They've literally removed you from your homes. They barred you from the sacred mosque. They, they're, they're oppressing you. Right? And then the I ends with an oppression is worse than killing. It's such an amazing verse actually, because it reframes and restructures our understanding of how we conceive of a liberal discourse in times and moments of oppression and repression that, look, people can do wrong things, so don't get it mixed up. We're not saying that somebody acting outta anger and acting outta a sense of oppression that they have is necessarily the right thing to do. It could still be the wrong thing to do, but don't blow it out proportion to the much graver systemic and structural oppression that we're seeing over here.
Speaker 2 01:03:59 Right. And that's going back to federal own's argument, right. Which is, don't look over here, don't look at the edifice of oppression. Let's, let's concentrate on the smaller aspect of what's going on here. Right. But as Muslims, we just allah's not saying to us that it's okay, just do what you want. Go, go for it. No problem at all whatsoever. Right. Allah find that, calls it what it is, which is, yes, they committed a great sin, but if you're gonna talk about this, let's place it within its true context, because what's going on over here is so much worse. Oh my God. And I think that's, that's really something I felt I had the space to, to talk about with this book for the first time in a way that I'd never been able to really articulate and allowed me to set it out in my, on my own terms, which I, I felt happy about in the end. Ham.
Speaker 1 01:04:49 Ham, definitely. Uh, one of the top recommendations that I could ever give thanks so much, uh, is to read this book. So this has been an invigorating conversation. Uh, I think it became clear through, uh, in the course of our discussion that Muslims are securitized and viewed through a racial lens, uh, combined with longstanding Islamophobia in Western societies. Being Muslim often means living Islam on the edge, yet it also provides an opportunity for ethical rooting and development. I think you mentioned earlier when I asked you, you know, this must have been destabilizing or disorienting, and you said, no, it's quite contrary. So maybe as the last question that I could, uh, ask you is if you could elaborate on the ethics that emerged out of your work and experience, what are the commanding values that crystallized for you during this period?
Speaker 2 01:05:40 I mean, without a doubt, the Quran conjunction to, to establish justice. And you know, as says, even if it goes against yourself, your kin, um, it's such a remarkable injunction. It reminds us that, that we have to hold ourselves as individuals to a much higher standard that we, we can't ever be complacent about who we are and the values that we be, that we think we believe in. That ultimately, your, even your own standard of justice will get tested at some point. Say for example, if a loved one is affected by something, or if, you know, you are caught in the crossfire of just even a, a, an arbitration dispute between a married couple, or if you are transacting with somebody and they do you wrong in that transaction, how do you deal with that in that moment? All of these things, both at a micro level and a macro level, the, the Koran reminds us constantly throughout that there is no secular space that if you are like the people of who are kind of, you know, saying, what is the market got to do with our prayer?
Speaker 2 01:06:45 Right. That you are reminded constantly that in every single dealing that you have, that all lies present. And I think that is the, um, the ethic that we at Cage have really tried to internalize that in a, in a, in a neoliberal order where everything is based around the metrics of like things that you can measure and success and whatever else. To have an organization that, that simply says no, simply doing for the sake of Allah's pleasure, for seeking allah's forgiveness, even if we don't see the material result of that, is in some ways very revolutionary. There's not many organizations I think, that think that way. They have like all these kind of indicators by which, you know, they have to kind of, you know, metrically track whether or not they're successful. But it's really hard in a, in a, in a capitalist world to hold onto the idea that doing something that is very, very difficult just for the sake of doing it for Allah and for the oppressed, is in itself enough with the proviso that Alex accepts it.
Speaker 2 01:07:52 Right. Because obviously you never know what your intention is until, until, uh, <inaudible>. And so I ask, you know, those who are, who are listening and who are, you know, in particular, Muslim to me, that are for us, grants us in what we do. Uh, he grants us, um, steadfastness and support, you know, that, you know, this, this work is difficult. Hamlets, we're honored by Allah to be able to do it. You know, it's not something that we should be praised for in any way, because we're the ones who are benefiting more than anyone else by being here.
Speaker 1 01:08:24 Well, thank you so much Dr. Asin. Thank you for being our guest,
Speaker 2 01:08:28 Marla, I really appreciate your time.
Speaker 1 01:08:30 You're most welcome. This has been an episode of the Islam on the Edges Channel of the Medan Podcast, a project of the Eman Center for Global Islamic Studies at George Mason University. Thank you very much.
