Female Muslim Piety in Bosnia and Herzegovina

Speaker 1 00:00:07 19 81, 2 Muslim women had and had just a fear sheet from Bosnia Herzegovina, which was then in Yugoslavia, traveled to the Muslim pilgrimage in METCO by car. They drove through us labia, Bulgaria, Turkey, Syria, Jordan, and finally reached. So the Arabia, the site of two women driving a car through the Arabian desert invited curious, looks by the Saudi police officers who were polite and did not interfere with their sacred journey. The ladies left a diary that has only recently received scholarly attention. In this episode, Dr. Janita cartridge, one of our two guests talk about their journey, which was covered in her dissertation. Welcome to the fifth episode of Islam and the address channel of the Maidan broadcast a project by the Ali center for global Islamic studies at George Mason university in Virginia. In this fascinating episode, I host two Bosnian researchers, Germana cordage and Dr. Janita cottage who reveal a rich history of female piety in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Speaker 1 00:01:20 We started by talking about the renewed interest in the study of piety in religion and humanities in general, but particularly in the Muslim piety within zoom on female Muslim piety in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the two guests look at the sources and what these sources tell us about female Muslim empire, the in Bosnia, starting with the Ottoman era until the present throughout the episode, we hear about the fascinating stories of women's resilience during the communist rule in Bosnia and Herzegovina their commitment to the faith of Islam, female Melies, or celebration of the prophet Muhammad peace, be upon him. And of course the amazing hydrogen journey by two remarkable Bosnian Muslim women, as this episode went into production, we received the news that one of the two women had just a fear. She passed away. May God have mercy on her? This episode is dedicated to her. My two guests are Germana Coolidge and Dr. Speaker 1 00:02:18 Jennifer cottage Germanna courage works as a freelance researcher, consultant, translator, and facilitator at her last position should spend five years working as an advisor on combating intolerance and discrimination against Muslims at the organization for security and cooperation in Europe, or as CE in Warsaw, Poland. Previously, she worked as a researcher at the Institute for the Islamic tradition, and Bosniaks served as the head of human rights and freedom of religion commission of the Islamic community in Bosnia, Herzegovina as a fellow at the center for advanced studies in Sarajevo and had the research at center for education and research at NACOA organization in Sarajevo Bosnia, she holds a BA degree in English language and literature and ma degree in religious studies from the center for interdisciplinary postgraduate studies, the university of Sarajevo in cooperation with Arizona state university, university of Oslo and the university of Copenhagen. She is currently preparing her PhD thesis on Bosnian Muslim. Speaker 1 00:03:20 Women's ways of navigating religious life from world war two onwards. She has co-authored volumes and articles involving the issues of religion, human rights and women. Our second guest is Dr. Juanita cottage. She is a postdoctoral researcher at the Berlin Institute for Islamic theology at the Humboldt university in Berlin. Germany should receive her PhD in the air and middle Eastern studies from the school of Oriental and African studies in London in 2018. Her previous research dealt with Bosnian Hodge discourses in a long delay perspective. And she is currently working on devotional piety in the early modern Ottoman period. She has written for the British journal of middle Eastern study is the Oxford encyclopedia of Islam and women Christian Muslim relations, a bibliographical history published by braille and cultural history, which is forthcoming. She has also contributed to the edited volumes Muslim women's pilgrimage to Mecca and beyond reconfiguring gender, religion, mobility, and most of them pilgrimage in Europe. And here we are with Germana and Dr. Janita, welcome to our podcast. Speaker 2 00:04:34 Thank you so much for inviting us. Thank you. Thank you so much for inviting us as well. Speaker 1 00:04:40 Of course, it's such a pleasure to have you both on our podcast. So just sort of briefly we're talking here today about female piety, especially focusing on Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Balkans. So I think it starts with maybe a general question. Why is there such a renewed interest in female PI the S scene is many recent works, like for instance, Marianne cats on women in the mosque. Maybe we can start with other Janita first and then as Germana maybe to try and answer the same question. Speaker 2 00:05:14 So in order to unpack the question, I think we need to first challenge or, or ask what, um, Islamic piety is, and then, you know, kind of extended to what female Islamic piety is or Islamic society of women in Islam is. So if we kind of think of it, there are multiple questions, which we can kind of connect with the, with the term piety. So do we mean normative piety or the piety of normative rituals, such as fasting, prayer, Ramadan Hutch, um, normative rituals, which are recognized as such by the majority of Muslims. Do we mean devotional piety or piety, which is primarily focused on the prophet Muhammad, which includes a different set of rituals, again, connected to both. So there are multiple questions which we can kind of ask, um, to, to kind of flush out what we want to say about the Islam by two women or the female Slavic piety. Speaker 2 00:06:12 So in any case, whether we talk about the normative rituals or whether we talk about different types of religious expressions, I think we can agree that there is a set of values, attributes, behaviors, attitudes, even nodes and emotions, which can be defined as pious and in many cases, or I would say in majority of cases, those revolved around the body. So the body is the main vehicle. The body is the center focal point from which women and men, pious women and men in a way express their religiosity. So basically we can kind of start from the question of the body, but the question of the body also itself entails a different set of problems in a way body itself has been in a way, contrast it to the normative texts. And that is why are practices were not really often in the center of Islamic studies or religious studies, at least in the, let's say, 20th century. Speaker 2 00:07:17 So I would then go back to what, what you asked in the beginning about why is there such a renewed interest in Islamic piety of women or female Islamic piety. And then I would kind of link it to several parallel developments, which happened in this scholarship, both in the Islamic studies, but also in, in religious studies, in, in more general, in, in a wider perspective. So this renewal of the interest, newly rising interest in, uh, the questions of female piety is not something which is only related to the Islamic piety. It's also related to the Christian piety. So there is a very famous book which came out in 1988, I think, uh, by Carolyn Walker, binary, which talks about women and their relationship towards food in a pious way, through both hunger and, and cooking holy feast and holy fast. So basically that book started from the premise that the way we look at the medieval times, the way we look at these medieval Christians, and I think we can kind of comparatively sale. Some Muslims actually says something more about the way we see ourselves today. So some of the questions which are related to the piety of women or piety in general, actually talk more about our assert our agent, the agent in which we are living. And then we kind of re reflected through scholarly endeavors onto, onto our historical objects. Speaker 1 00:08:43 This is I think, a great introduction. So Germana, what would you like to add to this ? Speaker 3 00:08:49 So my first comment in relation to this and the idea of, um, interest or renewed interest would be to raise also the question of, uh, positionality in terms of what we are seeing today, or have been seeing, let's say during the last century, if we, if we just like briefly kind of talk about this is more and more women themselves being actually able and capable to, uh, right, uh, or, um, testify about their own experiences. So self-representation in a way, so we see more and more women who are, uh, uh, able to, um, share their experience, be it as witnesses, be it as, uh, interviewees and also be does academic scholars and writers. And this is, uh, what's emerging for, uh, women, from whatever religious background they are coming from in terms of their piety, and then claiming this agency and, you know, sharing their own view and experience of these things. Speaker 3 00:09:51 And this goes also for Muslim women to rephrase Virginia Wolf here, we are getting more and more women who actually have their own money and their own room to sit and write about these things and share them, which is, which is important. And on the other side, I would also like to just briefly mention the fact that there are more and more people dealing with this. So what we all also need to have in mind is who's writing about these things, why with what aim and whether, uh, this exploration of Muslim women's Spire T and writings about it are also coming back to the women themselves. So are they included in this? Do they read about this? Do they listen to a podcast of this type, for example, you know, like who does this and for whom this is also I think an important question. Okay. Speaker 1 00:10:38 That's great. And Janita, you said you had a couple more thoughts that you wanted to, Speaker 2 00:10:43 So basically to add on what Giovanni is saying, this positionality, it didn't just occur out of nowhere. I would say that again, this renewed interest in the Islamic piety is a result of some very serious rethinking between different academic. And let's say non-academic spheres, including, for example, this interest in asserting one's agency, which is in a way, a product of a very fruitful dialogue between different feminisms. So is the secular liberal feminist framework. The only framework through which we can actually talk about women and talk about their religious experiences, obviously not. So you have different people who actually speak against this monolithic idea that it's only through the secular liberal feminist framework that women can actualize themselves or find their agency find their voice, et cetera. And I think piety kind of comes in, in, in, in the midst of these different debates where women are asserting the agency through the means of their own, but at the same time, again, I don't think that we should observe the agency in this very aggressive manner as something which is like a very vocal rejection of whatever it is. I think there is more to female piety that only do rejection resistance. Speaker 1 00:12:02 Yeah, thanks a lot. And I think this sets the stage really well, theoretically speaking for the rest of our conversation, I would just like to remind our listeners too, that in the last episode, when we talked about Islamic thought in Morocco, we had Dr. Mehta Mohe semi, and she talked about Islamic feminism and feminist thinking in, in Morocco in general. And she pointed out exactly the same thing, Janita that you were saying, which is that there are different schools of feminisms and that in order for Muslim women to realize themselves, they may draw on inspiration from different types and schools of feminism, including Islamic feminism, which we talk about quite a bit when she talked about Morocco. So with this kind of background that we have, let us know delve a little bit deeper. So to say our case study is Bosnia-Herzegovina. So we're going to start with, again, a general question about that. What can you tell us about female piety and participation in religious life in Bosnia and historically speaking? Speaker 2 00:13:02 So again, I have to problematize everything so we can definitely of course talk about forms of female piety in most, not historically, but we have to keep in mind two things or maybe three things. Those are sources, genres, and literacy. So these three things we have to always keep in mind the sources they can be scant, or they can be really rich. It depends how you approach them into facts. It depends how open you are when approaching them. So the sources obviously give us something, but then we kind of have to think like, who is actually writing these sources and how are they approaching these sources? There's also involved the question of genre. So for example, the sources I was working on, you could often find instructions for pilgrims and those who want to, for example, visit the tomb of the prophet that you know, and so these very standardized, uh, Ziara manual manuals usually, or in most cases included also instructions directed to women as well. Speaker 2 00:14:02 So women were included in this religious experience, they weren't included in Louisiana, they weren't included in Hutch. You could, for example, see the instructors of, uh, for example, how men should approach Medina on foot while of women, because of their delicate stage should actually know approach Medina on horse or, or, or something, something like that. So you do see women included in these types of sources by very inclusion of women in these sources, you can actually see that they may have been intended audience as well. And then obviously we come to the question of literacy. So you started speaking most of the material, which is there for us, is in Ottoman, Turkish, it's in Arabic. And there is some amount in Bosnian as well. But when we kind of cross into the 20th century with the rise of the print, that is when you actually get more female voices. Speaker 2 00:14:55 So to say, so you do get more descriptions of religious experiences by women themselves, which is not to say that print is always a very positive process or that it has always been a very positive development in the history of Muslims. In general, we have many instances where print actually in a way homogenized the religious experiences. So I'm not looking at print as like this always positive development, but in, in the case of Boston Muslim women, this is where we can kind of get more information about how they actually experienced the rituals or certain religious practices. Speaker 1 00:15:34 Thank you. Janita, walk us briefly through the sources in the Ottoman period in the brothers in the 20th century. And I understand that Germana has also done quite a bit of work, especially during the 20th century, I think, especially focusing on the, during the communist era and bystander to go be in that when it was part of the Slavia. So maybe Jeremiah, can you tell us a bit about that? Speaker 3 00:15:55 Yeah, I, I, I was planning on adding a little bit more if possible now to something in relation to this, but that could also go into, into the case of socialist Yugoslavia. Maybe just briefly. What I wanted to mention here is I've also done a research into the role and position of Muslim women in Bosnia and mosques today. And that also involve the part that was dealing with some of the forms of higher that have been present in this space. Let's call it for some quite some time. And what would be maybe interesting for the listeners is to hear some of these, these things, because they might be different than something that they've, um, they know in terms of their experience and prior to Muslim women, uh, in connection to the mosque, which is for example, that in Bosnian mosques, we've always had a place for women. Speaker 3 00:16:46 So it's traditionally something that has been present in our mosques, these spaces, any even up to today, these are sometimes smaller spaces, sometimes bigger spaces. It depends on them, but like women have been going to a mosque and there, there was a space for them there. Then the question is obviously what kind of space this was and what kind of space this is today. And this is something that I've researched a bit more into, but before just mentioning that briefly, I wanted to say, for example, that although Muslim women in Bosnia do go to mosques, uh, for example, we traditionally, haven't had lots of women going to Juma prayer, for example, or eat prayer, for example, or Janazah prayer at all, for example, whereas this is something that in some other Muslim communities is more present or differently present. So it's, it's interesting maybe to share this because sometimes we have visitors coming and women asking like, where should we go and pray Duma? And then we say, well, you can, but only in this one or two mosques in Saudi Arabia, for example, or one or two mosques in a particular region, which for some, uh, some people coming from some Muslim communities is strange in a way from, from what we can gather, Speaker 1 00:18:00 We can come back to that a little bit later in our conversation on kind of the more contemporary experiences, but maybe to follow up on the earlier question and connect with what Janita was saying earlier about sort of creating some kind of historical continuity and ruptures as well between the Ottoman times. And then when Bosnia becomes, you know, it's a part that, because Slavia before the Wolverine tube, after world war two, a communist Yugoslavia was created and that changed quite dramatically the way in which religion was practiced both publicly and privately, even. So maybe Dramani can tell us a little bit about that period after 1945, all the way until, you know, Boston gets into independence until 1992. Speaker 3 00:18:46 Um, yes, absolutely. And there is this infamous or famous belief that in some way, a women preserved Islam in Bosnia during that time. And it's, uh, it's always something that comes up in conversations of this type. And this is something also that Tony bring us speaks about and offers, offers her view on this and how, how did this happen and why, but we have this belief as well. Uh, what I would like to say in this regard is that in my research or in my understanding of this women, obviously don't have any special capacity to transmit religion. That's, that's better or different than the one that men have, like piety and a transmission of religion and the embodiment of religion. And the practice of religion as you need to spoke about is, is, uh, something that both men and women obviously doing can do. But I would like to highlight here that due to a very specific time that we are talking about, there are two, I would say structural conditions that did bring this topic into, into a focus. Speaker 3 00:19:49 I think the first one is emancipation of women, or as some authors would say for sure, mobilization of women during this period, there are discussions about whether this was emancipation, what kind of emancipation, and to what extent, and this is an important question, and it's not an easy one. And I see it often being very simplified, which it cannot be because it's a complex period. And it's a complex question. So for sure, emancipation for women did happen. We did have many laws that allowed for women to have equal rights as men, and to have more access, to meet the educational labor market at that time. So, but not to go into that too much. I want to say that still there were women, especially older women who did still organize their lives around their private spheres, predominantly, which doesn't mean they didn't work. They didn't have a full-time job outside of their home. Speaker 3 00:20:46 They a lot, but their life was primarily organized around their private sphere. And these were women then who did influence their whole families because they also, you know, guided or helped, uh, management of a private and family life. That's I would say one. And the second one is obviously related to the socialist regime, which to say the least found religion to be socially desirable. And that's why religion was pushed into the private sphere. Both the practicing of religion for men and for women was pushed towards the private sphere. What I can say from my preliminary research findings at this moment is that it is true that women did then take up this role of organizing the religious life within the family or within the neighborhood as well through a organization of different, different events. I will mention a couple of these things, like many of women, I spoke to several women, let's say that I spoke to share with me that they were the ones, for example, who would organize circumcision for boys sometimes with the knowledge of their husbands sometimes without the knowledge of their husbands. Speaker 3 00:21:58 And this is also interesting to discuss like how these decisions were made, or like, for example, when a husband leaves for a trip and they organize, they decide that she will organize a for the circumcision. And then when he comes back, if he's invited by the party for some informative conversation around this, he will say that he didn't know, he couldn't tell his wife not to do this. She did this on her own or issues that are connected to this, for example, um, the or the slaughtering of animals, Rachel slaughtering of animals, something also that was sometimes organized by women. Also following the same model of avoiding potential social punishment, or even other punishment that could, you know, happen under this regime. And it's interesting to say that some women also share that they know of their Catholic, for example, friends who would baptize their children also like that, you know, women taking kids to be baptized, not always including men, men in that sometimes in concert, in agreement with the men of the family, of course, or most of the time I would say from what I can see, but this is, this is indeed an interesting period. Speaker 3 00:23:09 I would say often difficult and often called difficult in terms of, of these things. But I would say complex, challenging, and also very interesting to research. Speaker 1 00:23:19 Yeah, that's fascinating. I think for our listeners who might not have the background, basically when a Bosnian was a part, we go slobby under communism under the rule of the communist party, as you said, many religious practices were looked down upon and were actively discouraged, including circumstances on baptism and so on and so forth. And it's so interesting to see that women were in some ways acting protectively toward by doing this while they were absent so that they could, that if they were called by the communist party to answer, why did you send your kid to be baptized or to be circumcised depending on religion they belong to? They could say, well, I wasn't at home and my wife did it. You know, I blame it on women. So to say in the way, um, so Janita maybe, uh, would you like to add anything to our general manager said, Speaker 2 00:24:09 Yeah, I just want to add something to Giovanna's brilliant comment. I think there was a third additional factor, which influences the piety of women in, let's say, in this long, long DeRay 20th century. And that was definitely the role of Islamic community and especially it's Islamic modernist project, which in certain parts collided, or was actually very similar with the socialist project. I think that the major traits are almost the same. There are just certain slight differences in a certain way. Um, there, there was curtailing or at least a critique of certain forms of piety, which can be related to, you know, peanut piety by, you know, very prominent, modernist streams in, in, in, in the Slavic community. And I think it kind of goes back to some earlier periods too, even, you know, like 1920s, 1930s. I remember hearing a story if I'm not mistaken that amendment hangi tours, I don't know. I would call him like performatively traditionalist was totally against, you know, Millwoods or tell heat or something. And then he changed his mind when he heard women gathering in house. Um, I think his mom was making, uh, was organizing, gathering or something. And then he heard that he changed his mind regarding that. So, you know, we can't really dismiss that side of the equation. You know, the Islamic community actually had a very authoritative role and sometimes very curtailing and linked teaching role in different forms of piety, including female. Speaker 1 00:25:47 Yeah. It's also interesting that that role continues until today. We can talk about the role of the official Islamic community of Bosnia, which is the non-governmental body that sort of regulates the administers, all the mosques in, in Bosnia, almost all mosques and religious life, and it's in charge of religious education and everything else. And so it's also interesting to see how it often work together with the state to put, to promote the state goals, whether it be during the time, uh, because Slavia before the bowl to, or during the communist time or even today, you know, when it comes to vaccination and other things, then we can talk about how that leader, they seem to be more eager on it. Then even the government sometimes to sort of portray that they are good players, but we can come back to that later. Uh, what I found interesting, especially Janita, when you were talking about how this, uh, famous scholar amendment hundred, who was I, Speaker 2 00:26:44 Sorry, I'm not completely sure it was him, so I'm just putting out there. Speaker 1 00:26:50 Okay. So let's say colors. So probably was a graduate of, you know, female, some seminary or Islamic study university somewhere was against these practices that are often considered a bidder. You know, the, you know, these kind of newly invented matters as they have been called like malware or the different gatherings to, to remember, uh, you know, after somebody passes away after a week or off the 40 days, we call it in Bosnia, Hawaii, right? So this is where the recitation of the and takes place and some chanting and prayers, including poetry, recitation of another things. And we can talk more about that later and to see that he will change his mind after he saw that women were keeping these practices. And these were actually conducive to protecting and promoting religious values and religious life. So even though normatively, he might've had problem with that in terms of sociological approach, he realized how important it is in protecting and promoting religious lives, especially under those restricted conditions that they were in. So if I could maybe add to that since we're talking about very specific examples in Janita, maybe you can tell us more and we will go back to what Joanna said earlier, but maybe you can tell us more about the practice of Hydra, especially because I know you did quite a bit of research on how, and especially as it was performed by Muslim women in Bosnia and Herzegovina. So give us a little bit then maybe with some examples from, from that period as well. Speaker 2 00:28:19 So when you look at pre-modern slide versus modern rectal rupture, and you can kind of see that, you know, names of women do pop up in the pre-modern period, but very rarely, very randomly. We kind of find out and we are not sometimes even sure whether they really want and how to really, you know, center, but it would because simply the sources do not tell us or lot again, as we kind of approach the 20th century, the things start to change rapidly. And it's not that women start appearing as authors immediately. It's more that they appear as, you know, companions fellow Hodges on the way. And so, for example, in, I think my favorite had to travel from the 1938. It's a travel by Muhammad Hammad describes a couple of Hodges who, um, you know, are part of the Boston group and basically do the way these women accompanied these men as fellow Hodges throughout, you know, Damascus Cairo in hijabs. Speaker 2 00:29:27 It's, it's really beautiful. It really kind of tells you something about, you know, the whole community, which transcends all these, you know, gender boundaries for, uh, you know, all kinds of boundaries. When, you know, people are actually in Cobra marriage together in, in Hutch. So women had these do appear, uh, who started to appear in, in trouble OBS. Um, and, uh, obviously, um, troubles indicate only one part of the HUD's reality, which is that a larger number of people were able to go and Hutch in the 20th century. So sometimes we don't, if we kind of look at the lack of women in sources, it's not always because, you know, someone prevented them. It's mostly not because someone presented them. It's mostly because they, you know, were poor and couldn't go and Hutch or something. So when you kind of progress onto the Hutch travel logs after the 20th or after the second world war, and you can see the emergence of female writing about Hodge or women writing about Hodges as well, which occurs in the frameworks of the official cause that's in journals of this one community. Speaker 2 00:30:39 So last week later on prep and other publications, but what I want to see here is that the female participation in Hutch in the socialist period did not go uncontested. There were parts of the LMR, which was not really happy with women going on Hutch after the second world war. So I found the debate between was known as this like notorious, uh, traditionalist who lived in a village in a secluded village and who started writing these treatises against a female participation in Hutch saying that, you know, the time is not great. Women shouldn't go and Hutch, they can spoil a prayer for three men. And, you know, it's just not the right time for women to go and hard for men to see them there. And obviously he was, he angered many people in this community and, you know, others callers started writing back to him and saying that he is actually using one Islamic arguments, that he has no grounds for forbidding women from going on hardship. Speaker 2 00:31:49 So this is, this can be like an interesting anecdote, but what I see there is actually a greater issue and the contestation over like female body on Hutch, which actually talks more about the feelings of threatened less salinity, more than, you know, just, you know, the fact that women, oh, you know, women are actually going to be in greater danger if they're go, go, and how'd you socialist times, which they, I mean, let's, let's speak realistically. They were safer going on how you're in socialist times then, you know, during the 17th century. So basically you do have lots of conversations in this period as well. And I would even say that, you know, this, this tension does continue. It's inherent even, uh, until now. Absolutely. Speaker 1 00:32:36 Yeah. Thank you so much. And Jamal, you Speaker 3 00:32:38 Also have something to add to this. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Anita, for sharing all this, uh, in terms of contesting, the presence of female body in, uh, how, uh, I, I would like to point at two things first is just to remind all of us about the role of hijab and the fact that Hutch does have a one part that's obligatory part to be done during Hutch. That is a reconstruction. So to say of a women's experience, and there is no Hudge without that. So how Jada was running from several times as we now do that also seven times as to remind ourselves of this very particular time when she was alone and leaning on God alone. And that's indispensable part of Hutch where a female body had to be there in order for us to have it as we have it today. Speaker 3 00:33:45 And it's, it's paradoxical that, you know, we keep seeing how female body is being disciplined in hygiene as well. And it's important for us always to remind ourselves of this, a woman, an African woman without tomb. There is no Islam. In fact, because that's one of the main stories that are related to our understanding of Islam that we have even today. And on a lighter note, I would like to share a personal experience of being a huggy, myself, going to hatch. And when I was preparing the, you go and read these, you know, recommendations and travel logs and like all sorts of things and you try to learn about how to do it and how to perform it. And what's good to be done, et cetera. And I was really like trying to put myself in her shoes also when I was doing this walk between Safa and malware and like trying to, you know, feel or try to understand how she might have felt, you know, while going there alone in desert, trying to find the salvation and the books indeed today that we read on that. Speaker 3 00:34:46 And there are instructions on how to do a hedge today, do say that men can run their, while they do that. While for women, it's not recommended that we run there, but I did run a little bit because for me, uh, you know, understanding how this might've felt for her going through between these two Hills, she had to run. I'm sure, like there was a part of that, that there was also running. You're not like just, you know, slowly walking, being worried that much as she was, as at least I feel as a woman, I would have been, you know, and then while we were doing this, we go in groups, obviously a Bosnian Huggies. There was an older man from Bosnia who was going after me and telling me, don't run here, women don't run here. And I turned to him and I asked him, but who ran here? How G coil? And he says, he, Brian Abraham ran Abraham ran. And I was like, no, it wasn't him. It was hijab. So I think this is also important, you know, these small practices, basically our understanding of what this school beautiful Ibadah or pilgrimage is all about. Speaker 1 00:35:59 Yeah. That's fascinating story. And I hope that our listeners find that really inspirational and the music of the same time. It's one of those stories. No, really. I mean, anybody who has done anything like that will come up, it'll come back or many stories that are going to be both inspirational, but there's always going to be something that is really amusing. And I think that this, these anecdotes that stay with us for the rest of our lives to stay with Hydra, because it's being researched on and written about Janita. I remember reading, and maybe for our listeners, you can tell us a little bit about the fascinating story of two Bosnian Muslim women who drove their car during the communist time, right. From Bosnia all the way to Saudi Arabia. And they, they there had by driving the cars. So tell us a bit about that story. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:36:51 I think that story definitely reached many people ever since I wrote about them in, I think it was 2014. Yeah. It could be 2014. Anyways, the two female Huggies in question are Sophia, Sheila, and he died. And one of them was working for an evergreen list. So, you know, a socialist mega Speaker 1 00:37:17 Industry, Speaker 2 00:37:20 The other one was a housewife and both of them were driving and they decided to go and Hutch. But since both of them had connections with the young Muslim movement and Sophia even spent, I think two and a half years in prison for, uh, being a member of a female branch of young Muslims, they tried to kind of avoid the authorities. You know, they didn't want people to know that they were going on Hutch, not people in general, but more like bosses at work. So they decided to go and Hutch by car with their husbands. And they also wanted to, you know, see the places like assemble, you know, uncurl the Moscow all the way to, they did manage to drive all the way through he jazz, because I think, uh, both of them had the international driver's license and they were stopped just a couple of times by a perplexed Saudi policemen. Speaker 2 00:38:14 But they actually, I mean, I think that they were more amused than, than, you know, confused or something. It was 19 81, 19 81. So it was just before the salary of a process. Yeah, it was, it was a very turbulent time. I guess what I found fascinating is that if you read the diary of he died, he died, he wrote the diary, but Sophia wrote the intro and it kind of took it. So normally they didn't, they were not even, you know, they wrote about their experience as they obviously it was probably the most life changing experience of going on Hodgen and meeting the fellow, um, Huggies. And I remember he died the right thing that she discovered the true, if God's to your deans for brotherhood and unity when she was in Hutch. And I found that sentence just absolutely marvelous. It was just so, Speaker 1 00:39:05 So Speaker 2 00:39:09 Communist motto, but she really does post it onto the Ooma and it was just so, so brilliant, but both of them, they actually took it. So normally that they were driving all the way there. It was for them, it was, yeah. It was like a Metro effect. Yeah. It's, it's most convenient. We see many places we're going to meet some, you know, family on the wave, hotter family in Turkey, and it's just like no class, nothing. And then, you know, just reading the diary, realizing that those women actually drove to Saudi in 1981. And I guess the publication of the journal, which unfortunately just came out in like 10, 10 copies or something coincided with the struggle of Saudi women for, for drive to drive. And I just found it really interesting to observe this like historical parallel, that example. Speaker 1 00:40:00 So, so they didn't, I understand that they didn't drive all the way to Mecca, right. They drove a baby to take that. Speaker 2 00:40:05 I kind of drove up to my car and then I think that they had to leave the car somewhere there, but still, you know, like driving through acquire parts of Saudis is still a huge feat. Speaker 1 00:40:17 So guide us through the countries, like when they left Bosnia, like, well, which countries they would go through all the way it's. So the Arabia, Speaker 2 00:40:23 I don't have the itinerary in my head completely, but I think that they drove through Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, then I think they reached, uh, they definitely were in Turkey for a longer period because they also met with some of the family members who were in the cities. It is somebody could have as well, you know, Bostonian families who, which left, uh, um, let's say Boston after the Austro-Hungarian conquest. And so was the Muslims who left, tossing out in waves. And then, then they entered Syria, Jordan Saudi. Speaker 1 00:40:57 Okay. That must've been quite the journey and to think this is what, 40 years ago. And if you were to attempt that kind of journey, it would be next to impossible today because security situation simply in places like Syria, Honduras, so on, and just tells you how different the world was just a few decades ago. Now that's a fascinating story. And I do hope that this gets translated into English because I think it would be really useful for the international audience to learn about these experiences. I remember when I first read this, I think I tweeted about it. I created a threat based on your article Janita. So credit goes to you about this. So this sort of, we are bringing it to contemporary times. There are many practices in Bosnia today that are specifically associated with women. So tell us more about this. I know about , you know, the melody that is only for women. I know about things such as Montabella or every citation, the UN in Ramadan for women only. And so-and-so maybe a gentleman that you can tell us more about this. I remember you started talking a little bit about it in an earlier question, so maybe sort of fill us in on that. Speaker 3 00:42:09 So I can briefly maybe share a bit more about, about this exactly. In this conversation is Janita somehow placed to question the concepts because like, you know, uh, Jensky metal load or, you know, women's metal head or women's your men also do McCarvel law. So reading of the crowd or reciting of the, and everyone does that. So sometimes yes, women do gather and do that on their own that's that's of course. True. I touched a little bit on this before, and you also introduced a little bit institution of the Islamic community. I would just briefly like to say that when talking about mosques in Bosnia, we are talking about around 1,600 mosques around. So that's the, let's say the number and Mo I think all of them, if not, most of them are run by one institution, which is the institution of the Islamic community. Speaker 3 00:42:59 We don't have too much time to enter into the history and like the position of this institution, but it's important for also our listeners to kind of have an idea about that as well. So what I would maybe like to add around this is that some of these activities do happen in the mosque, but some of them still also happen privately in, in the homes. And some of these reasons I think are because of, um, let's say official positions of the Islamic community, and sometimes women, uh, don't find the right space there or acceptance or acceptance in the way that they would like it to be. So to say, so there, there is this whole concept of unmasking, which is like often younger women or women who don't feel accepted, leave the mosque and organize the activities. In some alternative spaces, it can be private spaces of their private, their homes, as you mentioned, and this does happen or some other spaces that they decide to also do this in. And I think that's sometimes neglected that, uh, due to nature of swamps. So to say, and Islamic practices, uh, basically activities can happen anywhere or these bias activities, uh, occur in different spaces. So this is something I wanted to maybe also, Speaker 1 00:44:17 Yeah, I think that's interesting. Do you think that's something new or has it been around for some time that, that whole concept of unmasking and especially among younger women to feel as if they are not really included in these official Islamic community and the mosque and they are seeking these alternative places, is that something new or has it been around for a while or has it changed over time? Speaker 3 00:44:42 I think it changed over time from the top of my head, what I would say as an uncertain dislike women have always had their safe spaces where they also practice Islam together in different forms and ways this has been present. Uh, always my grandma, if I go back to my personal experience, my grandma used to have women coming to her home, reciting the Qur'an together, or having a women's mathlete together or exchanging copied materials. I remember when the copy machine appeared how thrilled my grandma was, how she could now copy everything and share with her girlfriends. So this is just, you know, our lives, basically how this was. But today, when we are talking about this unmasking or, you know, challenging, uh, of the division of the space, physical space in the mosques, but they would also say symbolic space and other types of like spaces and presence of women. Speaker 3 00:45:37 This is definitely currently being discussed, challenged, considered reconsidered a lot actively. So for all sorts of reasons, I would maybe invite our listeners to check out a website that was, uh, in fact established by an American activist, him McKee that's called side entrance. That's inviting women from all over the world to take photos of women's spaces in mosques and share how this looks like. And I would say that I personally do think that if you are a Tara mosque and you look at the space that's left for women, this tells you everything you need to know about that particular Muslim community, you know, because it tells you like, you know, how life is organized, how this community sees itself, whether women have the access that they need and feel included there or not. So I personally believe this is one of the important topics that we within the Muslim circles should be discussing more and have more focus on, you know, listen to women more, not because we want to like listen to women only, but because this tells us something about our communities and it's a very important indicator I would, I would play. Speaker 1 00:46:47 So take me to the female section of your mosque, and I'll tell you something about your community. Absolutely wonderful, uh, Janita. Speaker 2 00:46:56 Yeah, just wonderful. What Germana said that, you know, some forms of Islamic female piety actually tell us more about the society at large. And I would just try to expand this to, in a way, include men as well. Piety is not a fixed concept or a fixed practice if it's not a fixed attitude. So changes throughout times. And, you know, we could see how female piety changes throughout the generations and times and in different geographical spaces. But at the same time, we also have to kind of keep in mind that female piety is not separable from middle party. And again, to kind of draw further conclusions the way women shape themselves through their piety or, you know, certain types of ideal femininity, ideal religious persona work parallel to the ways in which men also fashion themselves. So I think, you know, the research on female pipeline has been really scanned, but it's still in much better shape than the research on, let's say masculinities, which arise from male piety or how men, you know, shaped themselves, uh, in contemporary society. Germanna and I were discussing, but these are the prophets in which festival series of events going on in cerebral in the recent couple of years. And basically how, how different it is in some ways from, let's say melons from 30 years ago or 40 years ago. So it's a definitely interesting dynamics to be observed. Speaker 1 00:48:34 Yeah. So it's an evolving practice in many ways and it bears the more so it's time and the context in which it is produced to, right. Speaker 2 00:48:42 If we kind of think of these public forms of devotional piloting in Boston artists, we could see that they focus in, in a large number of cases on the devotion towards the profit impoundment. And somehow you can actually see how the image and the imagery about the prophet is also changing. I think you posted on your social media. Like I followed two years, I followed the continuity and ruptured. So last year you posted a melody which stressed the decolonial role of the profits this year. You've let you, you posted something else. So would you mind commenting on that? Yes. Speaker 1 00:49:23 I just, I really did not think that deeply about it. I just wanted something because I remembered that last year for the Mellon, I posted one video and I didn't want to do the same thing. And then this guy just paused like the same thing. So Germana called me out immediately or a few lines, you know? Speaker 3 00:49:47 Well, no, I think this is a great, I'm so happy we are going, going this way. I would make like maybe two additional comments. What I gathered from what Janita is explaining, how I read this is that like, you know, some of these metal leads that we use to see, I used to see growing up, let's say my grandmother organizing these were women's spaces and mostly women's Netherlands and they were in private sphere. But now after communism, well, after everything we had, it became much more popular. So to say there is more social capital, if you are a part of a medley than it used to be. So now all of a sudden we see more and more men also joining this because it's it's has a completely different implications in the society today. You know, when it was, Speaker 1 00:50:35 It's very performative. Speaker 3 00:50:38 Um, like it seems like that I wouldn't claim it is like that because, you know, one never knows, but like we saw, we see something that now bears some social capital now more and more becoming a male thing, you know, or a men's thing, which is like a classic way. How things go if we analyze, you know, from a feminist analysis, patriarchy and stuff, when something gains more power, it kind of slides towards men more than, you know, it used to be, well, then it used to be. And also, I, I really would like to comment a little bit on this, what you need to set in terms of like, how do we come to see the prophet himself? So a lot Holly who is selling, you know, like, uh, I have this and I will just briefly explain what I mean by this. Like, what were his characteristics of, of, of his like character, you know, sometimes when we discuss about these like celebrations of, uh, around league, we hear about the battles and battles all the time, you know, which drops a lot of, uh, of other things from profits life, like not discussing maybe too much how he was in his attitude towards women, others, minorities, you know, compassion and you know, other, other parts of who, who he was. Speaker 3 00:51:47 And there is this one interesting, uh, exercise I sometimes do with Muslim youth. I divide them into three groups and individually tell them, I tell one group to write down women's traits. I tell another group to write down men's traits and then the third group to put down profits traits. So, you know, the one that deals with profit, if they put down, uh, profits traits, they will include compassion. They will include gentleness. They will include humbleness. They'll also include strength. And some of these then when you have them, you know, separately talking about how women are and how men are, they will not include all of these, you know, characteristics that luckily still they do include for the prophet himself. So it's a way for me to bring them back to understanding that profit is much more than sometimes we present him to be depending on our own needs, you know, what we want him to be primarily or who speaks about him and how he's being talked about. So it's always interesting to, to come back to this reminding ourselves, for example, that he did have longer hair, or he would also dye his hair sometimes, or he would put the eyeliner as well. You know, these are parts that we don't hear that much or that often, because they challenge our own way today, how we frame, you know, masculinities and femininities I think, Speaker 1 00:53:08 Yeah. And especially in masculinity, I was just constructed under the newly globalized, you know, ways of constructing these identities and so on. So this has been fascinating conversation then I'm sure we could continue on and on, but as we also have with the Cape with manageable, so maybe for parting thoughts, would you like maybe as a way of conclusion, each of you to conclude what we have been talking about so far? Speaker 2 00:53:33 Uh, very, very shortly. I think Slavic piety and female Islamic piety, uh, Islam, patio women is definitely, let's say a rich pool of resources from which both Muslims and non-Muslims can draw on for inspiration. And I really hope that people who do research in Boston, whether Bostonians or non Bostonians are actually going to pay more attention to this lived religion of Boston Muslims, rather than, you know, just ascribing the top-down processes and their effects due to, Speaker 1 00:54:06 Or looking at Muslims on some kind of security threats or through a securitization and all of that. Absolutely. Thanks. Germana Speaker 3 00:54:14 Yeah, we didn't have even time to go into, into like the ways how our Patty is influenced or conditioned by the securitization paradigm, but not Speaker 1 00:54:23 If you, if you, if you would like to, especially as, as it pertains to female piety, because that is our topic, feel free to thread. Speaker 3 00:54:31 Uh, well, just briefly to say, like it influences whether, you know, how you choose, whether you will go to mosque, how you would dress, what you will take with you, what objects you will show that you have, because, you know, unfortunately some of these practices are being now used as flags, you know, to indicate that someone is quote unquote radicalizing, whatever that means. So it can be, you know, it can have a direct influence into your personal life and work. So people, women for sure do think about these choices, you know, before they leave their homes and women generally do, do like navigate their whole life around the fact that they're women and, you know, all sorts of things can happen to them based on this. And now adding to this layer is also the layer of being a Muslim woman, you know, in a, in a, in a society, as it is today. Speaker 3 00:55:18 And that also influences, you know, how will you navigate a practice or of your, of your faith, but to offer, uh, a concluding thought. I do think as, as Jennifer says, this offers so much food for thought. And I would like anyone who is like ready to listen about this, not to be defensive and like, you know, because we do often get these defensive attitudes about not, no need to speak about some specific experiences. I do think specific experiences can teach all of us many things. And as we said, like how women are treated in a particular community, tells you about this whole community, you know, and that's why this can help anyone who is interested to listen to this with an open heart, you know, because it can transform our societies and our communities and can, you know, help us all understand more how it is when you are differently positioned than, than others in that community or society. So that's, that's where I do believe it can be useful for many people. Speaker 1 00:56:19 Well, thank you so much. This was a fascinating conversation and I hope that listeners will have found it the same way. This was an episode, obviously I'm on the address podcast of the Maidan podcast with the center for global Islamic studies at George Mason university. We talked with on the topic of female piety in Bosnia, Herzegovina. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.