Islamic Thought in Morocco: Philosophy and Muslim Feminism

Speaker 0 00:00:02 In this episode, Islam on the address travels to a traditional edge of the Muslim and Arab worlds. Morocco often overlooked in the study of Islam and Islamic thought can see themselves as part of the larger Arab Islamic world and consciousness due to its rich Islamic traditions and the encounter with the European colonizers and thought the Moroccans have developed a strain that Islamic thought that is both thought provoking and innovative readings as, as they come and welcome to the episode. Four of Islam on the address podcast, where we talk about the contemporary Islamic thought in Morocco in the first part of this podcast, Dr. Mohammed has, has talks about the emergence of modern and contemporary Islamic thought in Morocco throughout the 20th century. He does. So by looking at both the Arab and the <inaudible> Muslim authors, such as Elmo as Suzy who died in 1963 and his 20 volume encyclopedic work Elmira Sule, then he talks about a lot of the fantasy who died in 1974 and about the contemporary Moroccan Ryder <inaudible> in the second part of the podcast, Dr. Mariano Hasani focuses on Muslim feminism in Morocco by highlighting various schools of feminism secular feminism, which is nevertheless inspired by religion, Muslim feminism, and Islam is feminism Dr. Haitham. He talks about the legacy of Fatima <inaudible>, who died in 2015 and also about the work of Esmail and what I bet, who is a contemporary author. She also talks about the female PI at the Morocco. I hope you will enjoy this episode. Speaker 0 00:01:57 My first guest is Dr. Mohammed has, has welcome Mohammed. Speaker 1 00:02:01 Thanks a lot, Jeremy, it's a great program and I'm very pleased to be in. Oh, Speaker 0 00:02:06 Thank you so much for the kind words. So as M means, obviously the introduction, uh, Dr. Mohammed has, has, is currently a research fellow affiliated the live need Centrum mother and their orients Z M O in Berlin, Germany. And he's a faculty member, adjunct faculty member at the department of political science at Lewis university of Rome in Italy, where he teaches Islam in Europe and from which he called spiritually in political theory, Dr. Has, has, has previously taught also at the American university of Rome. So we are really grateful and honored to have you here with us, uh, in our podcast, Dr. Has has, and I will immediately jump into the conversation. So, um, we're talking here about, uh, contemporary Moroccan, Islamic thought primarily. So I would like to ask you how does the Moroccan figure or relate to the larger, Speaker 1 00:03:03 Well, uh, that's a great question to start with, um, to give a perspective from within the tradition itself, Moroccan, uh, intellectual tradition itself, well Moroccans as, um, and both as intellectuals and political establishment, um, do not see, uh, actually themselves as, um, on the margin or the far side of the Arab world, but they are not only part of the Arab or the part of the Islamic world. There are actually a part of its score, formative period, uh, tradition. And, and, and, and there are, um, at least, uh, three, four major access to which we can, we can, uh, elaborate, uh, on this. Uh, uh, so it's, uh, the identity over Morocco and moral consult, Moroccan Islamic start in June or a moral consult, um, in general, I mean, and Moroccan Islamic state in particular, uh, is a, is anchored in, in, in this Islamic city and Arabic. Speaker 1 00:04:08 So it is the religion and the language that have shaped the Morocco, we know today of the last, nearly 15 centuries. Um, so, um, by, by, by that we can speak of three extensions of the, of Morocco in, within the Islamic, um, uh, traditional and the so-called Islamic, uh, then's or Islamic world, or the Islamic in terms and the geographic extension, which is closer to, um, uh, uh, the, the, the, the emerging space of, um, of Islam, the Arab world to the west. So it's the Western edge of Islam of the Arab Islam or an Islamic law it's, uh, of course this geographic extension is political extension. So it is through that formative period of extension of religion that's made and gave a motive for the rights of political entity and Morocco, which has its legitimacy to the, um, to the, to the descendants, to the Gantt sons of the prophet of Islam Mohammad. Speaker 1 00:05:22 And that made the first dynasty and the current dynasty is not the same, but it also has the same legitimacy and lineage. Uh, so, uh, that makes a bit, um, uh, then, uh, uh, politically, uh, very linked to, uh, the Arab and Islamic tradition. And then by, at large is the intellectual tradition, which is the consequence of this geographic political extension. I don't know how far we can, uh, we can, uh, we can talk on this, but I can say, um, um, the, um, uh, intellectually, um, the Moroccan tradition, um, has contributed to the Islamic tradition on some major Islamic so-called, Islamic sciences, uh, on language, the Arabic language itself on Hadid and jurisprudence at the Sierra is, uh, and, and, and jurisprudence, and MECASA the Syria and on Sufism, uh, and th and, and later on all, or the intellectual tradition itself and historiography, but these are, uh, one of the major, um, traditions that Moroccan intellectual scholarship has contributed to in so far as, uh, the Islamic tradition is concerned. Speaker 1 00:06:44 And there is little tradition in <inaudible> here, and that's for scholars also to, to, to talk about, then we can talk about also later on, um, uh, and this, um, tradition boasts itself on one, at least major institution. It is of Carlene university. It's both, it starts with UNESCO's recognition as the oldest functioning and running university in the world, and not from, uh, 859 Ady built or reconstructed by, um, uh, a woman apartment area. Uh, so which precedes, uh, even allows her university, which came nearly a century later on, or Baranja, which came to, um, century, uh, later on and the rest of other colleges, but all are linked to our <inaudible>, which is an international hub until now for Islamic scholarship. Speaker 0 00:07:46 Thank you so much. I think this is so important because when we're talking about this level on the address, we're talking about the centering, our understanding of Islam by bringing into conversation, the, all the many centers that, um, Muslims haven't had in the past, and you rightly say that Morocco should be considered at the center of the Arabic Islamic thought, but it often by the outsiders is not viewed that way. As you know, there is a lot of emphasis on Egypt and Cairo and the last, uh, uh, more recently on Saudi Arabia with the rise of Salafism and so on. Uh, and oftentimes the, uh, am I going to be, you know, the, uh, the, the, the, the west most, uh, part of the, of the Arab world, if you could put it that way are overlooked. So I'm glad you recentering that now your answers, uh, lead me through the, to the next question. And it is that, and it's probably the extension on what you just talked about. What is it that makes Moroccan, Islamic thought Moroccan, whether it's distinguishing features? Speaker 1 00:08:50 Uh, yes. Um, this is actually on the previous note, and thanks again that you, it, uh, that, uh, and that goes with my point that Morocco doesn't see itself as part of the Islamic world, but maybe major contributor to Islamic, uh, learning, uh, because of the, the traditional Ocado in, and until now, also with, um, uh, activism of the, uh, the ministry of religious affairs. Um, there are, uh, higher institutions that are built for the training for, of amounts. And there is an exportation of the tradition to Europe, <inaudible> Africa, et cetera. Uh, so there is, um, that there is that use of the tradition, uh, so much what makes, uh, what are the major features, um, of this, um, moral contradiction? Well, um, there's this, um, uh, trilogy that is, that comes often in, in the way Moroccan, uh, domain and, uh, schools define themselves it's their, uh, adherence of, uh, um, to the Ashanti theology, Sunni Ashari theology, uh, which is dominating the Sunni world. Speaker 1 00:10:02 And then it is the military. Uh, so, uh, it's, uh, the <inaudible> the, the, the doctrine or the legal doctrine that has shaped the tradition in Morocco. Uh, we didn't say maybe we say later on, uh, that this is the, the, the, the hub in all north Africa, and it was the matter of Muslim, Spain for about eight centuries, mostly. And it's the Malthouse of other, uh, Sub-Saharan African countries with which Morocco has historic relations, uh, in the past and the present. Uh, and then there is the SU the Sufi orientation in, in Moroccan, uh, religious tradition, which is emphasized also politically in, in, in the, in the constitution of the country. So these are, uh, the, the major aspects, um, uh, intellectual aspects that, uh, have shaped the religiosity intellectual religion, uh, of the country, I would say. Yeah, Speaker 0 00:11:06 And I'm always tracking and the way in which, especially among the Sunni Muslims, it is often, um, defined that way. You have the belief system or the Al-Qaeda, and then you have the jurisprudence FICO school or meth hub, and then you have a corresponding, uh, school of Sophie zone, or, you know, for lack of better words, spirituality and whatnot. So oftentimes when I talk to Indonesian Muslim, they would say Ashley shopping, and then we have some, because Allian, Sophie's, I'm in Bosnia, people would save him a three, the Hanafi, and then the extra Bindi or something, something else. And so it's really interesting how across the Sunni Muslim world, that understanding of combination of belief, jurisprudence and spirituality is combined in what came to be known as dominating and defining feature of Sunni Islam. And it seems to me that Morocco is very similar in that way, too. Speaker 1 00:12:02 Um, it is, it is. And, you know, if you take the, if you take the example of the, um, the emphasis of the Meineke MedHub, um, because, uh, the Moroccan being geographically, geographically a little bit far from the Gulf or the heartlands of Islam in the beginnings, they want to stick to tradition that is close or faithful to the prophetic tradition. And what is which one is that it's the Maliki, uh, Monash, which is based on the experience of my ex who lived in Medina. So it's, uh, um, it resonates. And then, uh, th the, the inter the emphasis on the Sophie orientation it's because the Zoe has the brotherhoods. Um, I have, I've done a lot in the problem of racial discrimination of, of really short city. I'm fighting in the country for, for centuries Speaker 0 00:12:52 Brothers, brother who's here. So nobody mistakes, anything else? Speaker 1 00:12:57 Yeah. I mean, there's still, it's not the political, some of them couldn't be kind of semi political. They are often are political, but, uh, they have, uh, yeah. Their connections with, with political system, uh, in different ways, um, as to the sharp theology. Yes. I mean, um, uh, th that has dominated the, that's a broad debate if we want to go into that, but that's a philosophical view of things, not only, um, uh, ritualistic it's, it's, it's a way of looking at it Speaker 0 00:13:28 And metaphysics and everything else, obviously. Very good. Thank you so much. Uh, so, um, I wanted to ask this question and, um, to what extent is Moroccan Islamic thought predicated upon it being situated within the monarchy or a specific political system, or if I could ask it a different way, are there any limitations imposed on Moroccan Islamic thought because it is situated within the monarchy? Speaker 1 00:13:56 Oh, well, yeah, that's a, that's another, uh, not easy question. It's important question. There is no need, uh, to say, uh, that the monarchy, uh, and it's, uh, the legitimacy it's useful for religion as the legitimacy for, uh, for sovereignty and its, um, uh, predication on the fact that it does descendancy to the profits, uh, um, uh, sons, uh, again, Sonata, Hassan, et cetera, has played an important role in maintaining and building. Uh, what's called, it's not nation state. There is, um, Moroccan state nation out, uh, in, in, in the terms of, uh, the political scientist, uh, Stefan Wilford, Stefan. Um, so there, it's not something it's not a nation state that is built in modern times after colonialism. There has always kind of, uh, it's pinnacle within wine. If we go back to history, uh, in, in the geography we know is Morocco now, it never went, it, it resisted being under any empire, be it Arab or whatever it, from the very beginning, they descended from the <inaudible> empire or dynasty. Speaker 1 00:15:17 And they started building their own dynasty to become their own empire in the literature. Morocco was until modern times referred to as an empire. It was original empire because it's extended under and the, um, uh, uh, Oliver north Africa and, uh, to, to, um, to Spain and, and, uh, and south. So in that sense it's, uh, and all that expansion was a religion was, um, was used, uh, in that, um, uh, and, uh, as to the question, um, that this, uh, this, um, this interpretation of geographic independence from original empires has been maintained and only was interrupted during the French and Spanish protector, modern, um, modern time for about 45, 43, 45 years as to whether this fact Islamic thought or not. Uh, well, it depends because if we look at the, the present, uh, um, uh, orientation in Islamic thought, you will see that there is that, uh, aspect of critique of the sovereignty itself, even though it's based on religion and lineage, prophetic tradition, for example, apart from the mainstream, which tries not to go into that, uh, discussing the legitimacy to try, it's taken for granted that's the mainstream, um, uh, orientation in, in the political spectrum in Morocco, not only Islam is then within the Islamists, uh, very, for example, uh, <inaudible> movement, uh, justice and spirituality, or excellence movement from the 1970s. Speaker 1 00:17:19 Uh, it has, it's very critical of the monarchy, uh, and the, uh, refer to the caliphate as the model, et cetera. So, and they work within, uh, it's still not officially recognized as movement, but they have been present for the last 50 years or so. And they are, uh, they have, um, branches in all over Western Europe more or less. So it's a well organized, uh, spiritual movement are political, but it engages in the political, in the public debate, uh, at the same time. So, uh, so this means that there is that aspect of trying to go beyond what is there and to criticize when it is possible to criticize. And the same thing about, um, Hamad risoni, who is the international, uh, the president of the international union of Muslim, uh, scholars, which was before, uh, presided over, uh, by <inaudible> <inaudible> is an international figure. And the, in, in 2000, for example, he was critical of the model, one of Emily, um, uh, formerly a change or reform, and must have had been hands-on who works with, uh, state institutions. And they are lectured in front of the king in the two thousands, for example, when there is a need, he comes out as a critical figure. So I think there is a space of, uh, yeah, thank you. Speaker 0 00:18:46 Thank you very much. So now I want to move from more general from general to more specific questions. Uh, and I know this may be a broad question, but maybe try in a few minutes to give us an overview on this. And the question is who are the major contemporary, Moroccan, Islamic thinkers and the one-third they major works. Speaker 1 00:19:06 Okay. Uh, that's uh, there will be, uh, <inaudible>, uh, we, we need to select certain prominent figures, uh, though the list might be very long. Um, and you said that you said you would go to the contemporaries, but the contemporaries they bid on the moderns. So if we say for the last 150 years or so so-called Arab Islamic Renaissance, there are certain three, four figures I need to mention quickly, then we can focus on the contemporary, um, um, <inaudible>, uh, Mohammed <inaudible> and, uh, Mohammed Hassan Alhaji <inaudible>, these are four major figures, uh, in, in more or less contemporary. They live there. Uh, we were born around 19 hundreds or late 19th century, and they lived until the 1950s and sixties, and they've, they are influential and all the contemporary intellectual figures of religious and non religious affiliation, they refer to them as important, um, uh, figures. I don't know if you want me to say a few words about these, or we go to focus on the contemporary. Maybe I wish I had the two Kylie, uh, some of them, they didn't live, um, a huge, um, uh, library, uh, written production. Some of them, they, they were very influential, uh, but they were, they based their, their work on, on, on memory and only what is written them is yeah. By their disciples or students. Speaker 0 00:20:51 So teaching and students, they had most of their influence. Speaker 1 00:20:54 Exactly. For example, Bush, I would do Cali. Uh, he died in 1937. He traveled a lot in the middle east and in, in, uh, in Saudi Arabia in, uh, and the, he gave lectures there. He gave lectures in our laws, her, he gave lectures in, in Alka and Zaytuna in journeys, which, which are one of the most prestigious or the most prestigious religious institutions in the Arab world, which means that he was of high caliber, uh, of the time. And, uh, he was also, um, consultant to the Kings and in, in the country, et cetera. And he influenced the rise of so-called, um, progressive Salafism of course, I know that the word startup is, is, is now has the political negative connotation, but in the Morocco at the time, it was the Renaissance movement. The reform is movement called, uh, national setup is, or Speaker 0 00:21:51 Similar to the Abdul actually earlier. She played last summer. Speaker 1 00:21:56 Exactly because he, he traveled in the middle east in that period. And he lived that moment of a Abdul, et cetera. And they went back to Morocco because he lecture, they et cetera. And he influenced the new generation of Moroccans, uh, um, uh, the so-called new, uh, reformist and major scholars. And for example, he influenced the second major figure Mohammed <inaudible>, uh, who also didn't write. Uh, but, uh, there, uh, works on him, um, on their lectures and et cetera. A lot of we was Sophie orientation, but when he met the, the, the master is, uh, <inaudible>, he changed, he was influenced by these ideas of a new, uh, um, ideas of reforming, et cetera, that also, uh, that started in the middle east and et cetera. And he became the, the, the, the major second major figure after, uh, after Ducati. And he influenced and influenced the rest of, uh, contemporary scholars like Muhammad when it has an <inaudible>. Speaker 1 00:23:10 And these figures also are the ones that they would like to say a few things about, especially, um, uh, <inaudible> he wrote a lot on, uh, on, uh, uh, for example, <inaudible> in 1927, uh, where he speaks about the history of, uh, Islamic sciences and tries to put them in categories, et cetera. So it's encyclopedic work and there's other works on the education of women. And he wrote on his, uh, uh, on, on the work of, uh, <inaudible> to kind of sentences then as Susie, Susie is one of the brilliant ones, and he's done marvelous work, which is unfortunately understudied. And th th you're know, that's, Morocco is not understudied from that perspective is, is very, uh, clear in the literature. There are a number of books now, but most of them are on politics, history of Morocco, political history, but not on thought, Susie is from Seuss. Speaker 1 00:24:11 So the, the Berber area up in the very south, um, he wrote, for example, uh, 20 volumes called El Massoud, the honey, if I can translate it, what does he do in these 20 volumes? He writes the history and they were fields, uh, of influential people in the whole region of the south of Morocco in the Seuss, in particular, he writes, uh, their intellectual tradition, their, their, their lineage. And he writes also on, on, on, on, uh, religious schools and their graduates when they were founded, et cetera. So, and so he's an author apologies on the story in that sense, marvelous work, and it should be studied from a, yeah, I wrote on the school's beside these 20 volumes, zero other wonderful, wonderful texts. And this says that people scholar should, they should write their own autobiographies, uh, so that, uh, their experiences are transmitted well to the future generations. Speaker 1 00:25:20 Um, yeah. Then there is another figure of the Lego noon who died in 1989, but it was born around 1908. Uh, he wrote another text that's called in three volumes and Nobu Alma review, which is famous text. And the bone Murphy is the reply to the mushroom or a kind of neglect of the Moroccan tradition in the encyclopedias, uh, that are written by, for example, uh, Hamad, amine, or other <inaudible> minds about the history of intellectual history of Islam or Arab world. They don't emphasize the traditions, uh, in, in, in the Maghreb and Moroccan particular and Morocco again, uh, we, I didn't emphasize it in the beginning, but I just mentioned it in passing. Uh, it considers itself an air to the Spanish and delusion experience, which is very rich tradition. And so all of that is criticized by, um, the librarian, because he wrote this, I know who am I going to be to show that the Moroccans have been brilliant in, in, in all major Arab, Islamic sciences, et cetera, as a reply to this, uh, scars, um, attention paid to them by other machete or live in pine scholars, or in that sense, also Europeans will focus on the, on the live and time. Speaker 0 00:26:40 So I think this sort of brings us to a more, and I know you've written extensively about the habit of man and, uh, I think many of the thinkers that you've just mentioned connect in some ways to his thought. And in the, in the last few years, we've seen not only you, but also while HELOC and many others have written on him. So why is he so important than what is the gist of his ideas, if you, if you could put it that way? Yeah. I, I wrote Speaker 1 00:27:06 A few seconds to mention another major figure. Then it moved to <inaudible> because also <inaudible> was influenced by this figure. It's a little fussy he's, you know, however important he has been in Moroccan intellectual history and politics from the 19 late twenties. He is a graduate of <inaudible> family, and he has been active in the field until 1974, and he is the founder or considered one of the founding fathers of the national movement. And he play, he played an important role in the formation and of the ministry of religious affairs of, uh, uh, Robert, uh, of the, um, uh, religious institutions in the country. Um, Darryl had either has any IME in 1964, and he w he was pro the idea to think Hassan secondary. He was prolific writer besides his being political, active, uh, leader who was also active in the whole Arab and Islamic war. He was defender of the Palestinian cause worldwide, and it was presenting, defending the Palestinian cause when he died in 1974, I Romanian bookers to a new, uh, in a visit to speak of that, uh, besides the Morocco, uh, Western Sahara issue, um, uh, Alan and Farsi wrote, for example, uh, I will go back to that maybe later on, uh, with details, but he influenced a number of, uh, contemporary scholars. Speaker 1 00:28:39 Then I go back to your, uh, to your question, uh, of <inaudible>, uh, is important. <inaudible> Speaker 1 00:28:48 stands as a unique trigger, and I've been reading him actually since my early university is in Morocco since around 2004. Then I put him aside for a little bit then, uh, later on when reading more extensively about Islam, contemporary and modern Islamic thought, uh, I realized how unique, more unique he is. And in that sense that I came to also know about the work of a white hot lap later on around 2013 and his interest in him. Um, but I started using, uh, uh, <inaudible> in my work on European Islam. Why is money important? Uh, um, first, uh, he tries to give, uh, uh, another modern push to the revival of the traditional philosophy in Arabic, Arabic, and the way he put the spices is a very attractive, very interesting with the rich, which you don't see opening the others squirt. Of course, I'm not saying that each scholar has his own way of doing it, but he theorizes it doesn't do only history of ideas, but he goes into a, an idea and it gives, um, has a way of a unique way of argumentation. Speaker 1 00:30:11 Hey, because he's trained as a, as a physician trained in Morocco and in France and went back, um, and he, he he's majored work is to say that the Islamic message is an ethicist message. It's moral, uh, message. And that makes the unit it's universality is based on that. The other important element in his work is the thing is critical Mo more or less of everyone apart from few figures that are, that stand high in his tradition, for example, in his work like <inaudible> and, uh, and, and, uh, Tamia. And also he didn't mention it, but he, so, and of course, uh, the Macassa the, uh, traditional was shot to be. And, uh, so he, he belongs to this, uh, um, uh, tradition is very critical of, uh, the other ways under the, the scholars, um, the <inaudible>, uh, or the other risk scores in the <inaudible> Africa, or in Morocco, you know, there is the whole debate, uh, whether other ways, if we revive our, our ways, the way we, we will invite Arab and Islamic philosophy, but he says, no, this is not the point he he's critical of other ways. Um, he has, um, do you want me to mention something about these works now, or maybe we can, uh, want to say something more? Um, well, Speaker 0 00:31:40 I think especially he has this trusteeship paradigm that he talks about. Maybe you can mention the, what that is and why is it so important? Why, why it figures in his thoughts the way that is? Yeah. Speaker 1 00:31:52 You know, one other aspect of his work is the Tiara has all his books. They start with an epigraph and this epigraph is Koranic verse, and he uses Quranic concepts at which he pillows. They become concepts in his work. He never uses Quranic verses, or, uh, Hadid's prophetic words in inside the text of argumentation. Now he does that only in the epigraph or in footnotes, just to say where the concept comes from. So just, and this is one of his ways is to say that Arabic tradition has to be revived from its major source or major sources. And the Koran is one of it's from the Islamic tradition and not only Arab, uh, is the Koran is a very inspiring texts in that, in that sense as to trusteeship it's from Alana, it's, it's the, it's the message Gordon. The concept of that, it is a covenant that human beings have taken from God as the moment of creation, and it is what they live with and do it they should live for, and this is an ethical message for excellence. Uh, so it's, uh, it's, uh, it's doing the best you can, uh, without, while, uh, yeah. Being utilitarian in that sense, simplifying Speaker 0 00:33:20 That reminds me of a Malaysian, uh, Islamic thinker, uh <inaudible> who also has a, uh, in his books, Islam and secularism in probably the main to the metaphysics of Islam. He also centers this idea of the man or the commandant, a paradigm of humans with God as the central part of the Islamic message as well. Speaker 1 00:33:45 I, I am aware of that and I hope there could be more in-depth studies and comparative in that sense, but the point is that's Adorama and has done. And that's why I've used him in my work is that he has built a whole ethical paradigm. It's it's an ethical school. There is in philosophy and at, uh, and also among, uh, some Arab and Islamic scholars, that there is a lack of an ethical theory of Islam or modern ethical therapy Islam. But Tom Duran says, look, quite all. Islam is an ethical theory. So what he does, what he does is that he builds this framework and he does that by basing his work on the tradition, on reading the moderns, seeing the limitations, the model, be the Arab and Muslim, or be the Europeans he engages with European and American philosophers, the most prominent ones from the early modern period to the contemporaries, uh, he's critical of, uh, of their war. Speaker 1 00:34:48 You know, he engages, he does not criticize and process, but he, he, he does, um, uh, very serious work of engagement, which a number of other scholars often don't do they ever quote and pass, but he struggled to say that were there points where their philosophy is more than philosophical lead while his philosophy, according to him, trusteeship philosophy or concept or theory is based on an Islamic. And it is for him, a corrective of the pitfalls of modernity. That is why while HELOC, for example, says, entitle this book reforming modernity it's because he worked on Batman, the whole book is about <inaudible> and Tom <inaudible> aims up correcting modernity. So he's project at end starts Islamic in sense of based on the Islamic tradition, but tries to be a tool to respond to contemporary and modern philosophies and there and there, uh, for him, uh, pitfalls or shortcomings. Yeah. So he has written, um, um, yeah, a lot on that, that regard and they think the waterfall. Yeah, Speaker 0 00:36:02 Absolutely. Thank you so much. And, uh, as we were running out of time, and I know we've just scratched the surface of this, and I hope that in maybe one of the future episodes, and we can revisit this and go a little bit more in depth, maybe as a matter of, of the way out conclusion, uh, whether it be two or three major works. If somebody wants to start learning about contemporary Moroccans, Islamic thought whether the few major words that one should read in order to familiarize herself or himself with that. Speaker 1 00:36:31 Uh, well, uh, before I gave some, some titles, there is a dire shortage in acceptable, uh, shortage, I would say, uh, of works on intellectual history in Morocco and between brackets allow me to use this platform that I am working on editing, um, the first large volume on contemporary moral consult, where, uh, in which, um, there is lots of contributions on working contemporary philosophers, your origins, and also social scientists, uh, uh, in the field. So it's, uh, Speaker 0 00:37:09 So announced here that our center central face-time in the contemporary world of Shandong university will in some way contribute and support that work as well. Speaker 1 00:37:17 Exactly. So I am very thankful to that. So that will be the first book I will recruit because there isn't any work. Speaker 0 00:37:26 Yeah, it's great. I'm sure when it comes out, it's comprehensive in the way that it gave us a number of different thinkers and it's a really good overview. So that probably is going to come out next year. I hope. Speaker 1 00:37:36 Yeah, it, it needs at least some 18 months, uh, of more work, uh, from now. Um, it just taking, um, a couple of years, um, as to the work that I can recommend that are Islamically oriented, but there are few, they are theoretical. There is a lot of material in them. I can refer to self-criticism by <inaudible>, which is in Arabic <inaudible> and excellent work published in 1954, but it was written a bit earlier, uh, some five years before in, in when it was in Cairo, the second book, and they didn't refer to this figure is the Dean of Moroccan modern philosophy is a, the text is a Muslim personalism written published in 1964 by Muhammad, as his law, Bobby he's, the Dean opened the first department of philosophy in Morocco and influenced, uh, the rest of generations after him, among the people he influenced is the toddler man and other man also was influenced by a little fantasy because they are all within the objectives of Sherri on moral, traditional of Islam. Speaker 1 00:38:52 And then Tom Kauffman goes, uh, belonged to this tradition. And then the third text, uh, is, uh, the spirit of religion by top man himself. It's a thick book, uh, uh, in which he tries to give what religion is about and tries also grapples with political Islam. He criticizes political Islam, both in the SUNY and sharper tradition. And he says that they've become so political and they have left the moral message, et cetera. So these are, uh, if I can recommend the contemporaries, these are three major texts. They are not history of ideas. They are theoretical texts themselves. Speaker 0 00:39:32 Thank you so much. And I would just like to mention here that, of course, there's a strong tradition of Muslim female scholars in Morocco as well, but our second part of the podcast is going to be dedicated to that. And I know that you also partly wanted to talk about it, but, uh, we decided that we should leave that to, uh, to our next guests. So less anyone thinks that we, we forgot about that. We didn't, it was a conscious choice because we wanted to dedicate half of this podcast to, especially to that particular thing he has to go ahead. Yeah, Speaker 1 00:40:06 Yeah. If you allow me, um, uh, I think I belong to, uh, a tradition within the Islamic, certain, the Arab thought in which male scholars also talk about female issues. So I hope that not only females should talk about human issues. I, and, and I am here adopting the view of <inaudible> leading Moroccan feminist, and for some it's, uh, the, the, the mother of contemporary Islamic feminism, so-called Islamic feminism who says that for me, feminist issues or female issues are not the issue of women alone. They are the issue of males and females. And so I, it's a company that I, I am interested in, but I should not say much for now. I thank you for the occasion. Thanks a lot. Speaker 0 00:40:57 Of course. Thank you so much, Dr. Mohammed, this was a wonderful invigorating conversation. And, uh, I'm looking forward to us talking again. Thanks again. Thanks Speaker 1 00:41:06 Very much. Thank you very much. That Speaker 0 00:41:09 Was Dr. Mohammed has, has my next guest is Dr. Mariano. Haytham me my name. Welcome. Thank Speaker 2 00:41:17 You very much for having me today. Speaker 0 00:41:19 You're most welcome, uh, Dr. Marino Haitham. He is an assistant professor specializing in gender and religion at the international university of Alabama in Morocco. Uh, and she's also the Morocco base principal investigator for a four year multi-institutional project, entitled gender politics and critique, and the middle east and north Africa towards a critical history of feminism 1970s until today, which was funded by the Swiss program for international research. She holds a joint police supervise PhD in cultural studies from the CD Mohammed bin, Abdullah university and fests and Sunni being in New York state. Her research explores trends of Islamic feminism in post 2003, Morocco, gender perspectives and preventing and countering violent extremism, and the role of women in state religious policy and the Islamic scholarship. She has been awarded numerous research fellowships, including the American academy of religion award and the global religion research initiative to pursue research on Morocco's de-radicalization processes, as well as the reshaping of urban subjectivities through the reinvention of Sophie Zan in Morocco. So I might even once again, uh, welcome. And, uh, I'm going to launch into our conversation by asking you, why do you think Morocco emerged as an important site and thought center for Muslim feminism? Speaker 2 00:42:45 Well, um, of course, as similar to other countries in the region, the quote unquote woman question is of course shaped by the confluence of different socio cultural and historical trajectories, and the ways that different socio cultural and historical conditions morph into sources of authority that shape that this course around women's empowerment and their experiences. So of course, we can talk about religion. We can talk about the tradition, maternity nexus, patriarchy, the monarchy and so on. So Morocco, for example, is marked by an interesting combination of traditional religious identity and political liberalization. So that traditional religious identity in the sense that there is a certain collective imagining of religion and political liberalization in the sense that there's been an expanded space for public expression, especially after, um, the, um, 2011 events. So that interplay of both paradigms creates a space for complex expression and negotiation of rights and expanded visibility in the public space, but also reveals an interesting dynamic of patriarchy or Naomi patriarchy as figures and other scholarship that bridges traditional religious system with modern demands and where the state becomes an advocate of women's rights and sociopolitical reform. Speaker 2 00:44:24 So in this process, if we, for example, mentioned the monarchy in particular, of course, in Morocco, we have a monarchy where the gang combines both religious and political authority, religious authority in the sense that he's not a religious scholar or issues that's web, but his religious authority it's channeled through structures of official Islam. So the monarchy plays a particularly important role as it functions as an orbiter that ensures political liberalization while maintaining social cohesion through a homogeneous practice of a slump. So when it comes to women's rights, breaks up, all the monarchy has since independence, advocated women's rights, and subsequently contracted a state feminism that is understood as the government's strategy to introduce top down programs that promote women's rights in the gender equality. So the king himself, um, proclaims his role as the defender of women's rights and the catalyst and the, um, implementation of political and social change and, um, promotion of gender equality through institutional mechanisms. Speaker 2 00:45:41 So this of course creates an interesting paradox that sometimes puts into question the legitimacy of the feminist project and its ability to operate independently from this tape that said this intricate interplay between the politics of religion, gender, and, um, the rhetoric of political liberalization and Morocco allows an exploration of the epistemological contours of contemporary expressions of feminism, gender critique, as well as the narratives and trajectories of these female activists who construct new modes of empowerment and feminist consciousness, although it may be operates in from within male dominated or state structures. And of course, um, these, um, new forms of engagements become a defining components and the structure of civil society. Additionally, what I think is also an interesting point on why Morocco figures as, um, contemporarily as an interest in sight is, um, as there's also the emerging counter extremism discourse since 2003, that began to posit women's empowerment and gender equality as a counterbalance to Islamist ideologies, which represents a discursive and a structural shift. So women are no longer just praised for being the protectors of the family units and the traditions, but as protectors of social cohesion and, uh, political stability of the country against, um, religious. So, so I think that these, that these emerging dynamics create space for a metal forms of expression and, um, that also present Morocco as an interesting case. Speaker 0 00:47:42 Yeah. Thank you so much. I think this sets well, the stage for the rest of our conversation, I'm sure we're going to be going back to many of the points that you just raised, but I want to kind of rewind to the past a little bit, of course, uh, when people talk about contemporary or modern Muslim feminism in general, not just in Morocco, a father, my mountainous see, comes as a obviously appeal they'll figure in, in that particular history. So can you tell us, uh, about the influence of her work today, but also about her intellectual influences? I mean, I think that she didn't emerge in a vacuum. So who were the influencers in her, you know, on her own thoughts during her time when she was riding? Speaker 2 00:48:27 So of course, when we talk about the feminist consciousness and Morocco, we talk about a project or a movement that dates back to the mid forties as part of the urban nationalistic movement, which was marked, but more of a liberal outlook that advocated universal human rights discourses, while of course recognizing the importance of religion within society, as well as the importance of reread in religious texts in light of social changes and within the spirits of <inaudible> rather than the shitty itself. So earlier channels of feminism, of course, included journalistic writings, which circulated among the educated elite and was part of the wider context of the nationalists movements. And here I can, for example, mentioned, um, Medica Fessy who explicitly called for the education of girls in her journalistic writings. Um, we can also talk about legal rights, which were earlier on advocated by the first women's association in Morocco called how it suffer translated as the sisters of purity, which was established in 1947. Speaker 0 00:49:51 So it's kind of like a <inaudible>. Speaker 2 00:49:56 Yeah, so Eddie emerged from the independence political party and, um, their demands were avant-garde as back then. So their demands included political participation equality at home, the abolition of the polygamy. So their association also, which is very interesting, it also objected to the new family code back then the first family code in 1957, by challenging the particular role of Islam and Islamic law in drafting Moodle one, which was controversial back then. Um, so then we can also talk about post independence, academics, academic, feminist scholarship, which, um, reflected that strong demand for women's emancipation and rights. And, um, subsequently opened the debates around the role of religion in shaping legal debates on women's rights. And the, I can mention here on the work of <inaudible> year of the elephants, that addressed themes of family and do force and light up the transition to work post-colonial Morocco and the conflict between traditional culture and modernity. Speaker 2 00:51:09 And it grew particular attention to the fact that although Moroccan women participated in the struggle for independence, they did not achieve any legal gains hardly. So especially that the family code, the first family code was, was, was seen as a big disappointment. So of course Mernissi emerged, um, within that trajectory, as of course, one of the pioneers of Islamic feminism, not just Morocco, but in the region, because she was the first to engage with this new gender sensitive chronic interpretation. So she engaged the texts directly by highlights. And of course, the fact that the access and interpretation of religious sources and texts is reserved, um, for apolitical and, um, religious elites that she calls the male elites. So, so, um, so in her book, for example, the veil in the male leads and titled the villain, the male leads a feminist interpretation of women's rights and in Islam should discuss as the inevitable and measurements of politics and religion, which is, which has shaped the production of religious knowledge. Speaker 2 00:52:24 So she emphasizes that religion is undermined by MIS interpretation and also argues that knowledge production process is not infallible, but is a product of subjectivity. So, um, so Mernissi offers a feminist reading of a slum that highlights, um, that demands for gender equality and social justice are inherent to Islam. And therefore she suggests a reconstruction of what she refers to as the authentic message of Islam away from male elitist instruments of light station. So of course Mernissi set the ground, um, for, um, for feminist engagement with the text. And what is also particular about her work is that she contributed to blurring the classical dichotomy of secular feminism versus religion. The idea that feminism and, um, religion can not be reconciled. So of course, although her works were, um, controversial earlier on, but she really paved the way for a, for an intellectual project that, um, engages the text directly. Speaker 0 00:53:41 Yeah. Thank you. I think, um, that's really a good reminder of that history and the influence that that work has had not only in Morocco and north Africa, but also across the world. You didn't mention in, in the answer to the previous question, you've mentioned Elma that one. And so I would like to take that. Can you tell us a little bit for just, you know, a benefit to our listeners? What is that one, uh, and the, what is its impact and significance, um, in the, in Moroccan society, but also not just in American society, uh, worldwide, globally? I think Speaker 2 00:54:16 So. Um, of course I'm what I wanna is the Arabic translation of the family code. And, um, of course, again, since, um, since the inception of the Moroccan feminist movements in the mid forties, the activism of the feminist movement really developed its thoughts and activism around the family code. So the family code or the Moodle winner governs areas of, um, Chamblee laws, such as marriage, divorce, inheritance, and, um, child custody, and, uh, was first introduced in 1957, right after Morocco's independence. And it back then represented a disappointments because it gave few rights to women. For example, men could engage in polygamy without their wives consent or good. You knew laterally divorce, a wise women could not marry without legal approval from the guardian and married women are obliged by lots of buts or they, their husbands and the rise to divorce was really tightly restricted. Speaker 2 00:55:29 So there's also the fact that the, the one I was drafted by men religious colors and was based on religious law, meant that it gained a sacred nature and it was really open to public discussion. So therefore the first family code was seen as a betrayal to the feminist movements back then, and really constituted and major struggle for the decades to follow. So we're talking from 1957 until really early two thousands. So as the feminist movements continued to lobby for expanded rights for women, minor changes, reforms were made in 1993. However, the real substantial reform was introduced in early two thousands with the coming of the new king back then met. How about the six who made it a case to advocate more rights for, for women? So in 2004, the Noma, the winner or the personal status code reform was introduced after a consultation that brought together different groups. Speaker 2 00:56:39 So now we can talk about different people sitting together to have the conversation, religious colors, bullets sessions, um, civil society, actors, women, NGOs, academics, and so on. So it promised several important rights for women, including the rights to self guardianship, divorce, child custody restrictions on polygamy and raised the, um, the legal age of marriage from 15 to 18 and made sexual harassments punishable by law. So the new Modo went out of course, is inspired by universal human rights while of course maintaining, um, religious law, especially the Medicaid med hub as a source of issues. She had to deduce laws and percepts so, um, of course the, the new Madonna was back then hailed as progressive, um, as one of the most progressive family coats and the region, especially, um, in light of the overall context, because it wasn't an interest in context. Um, well, as we speak now, there is a demand for reform because, um, there's been issues of implementation. Speaker 2 00:57:56 There's serious issues of implementation. So as we speak now, there demands of reconsidering, um, the age of marriage of having an open conversation about minor marriage, about, um, about custody issues, because although there's been a reform at that level, uh, the father remains the sole guardian of the child, which creates, um, structural issues for many women. So there is another demand to reform the 2004 family coat. So, as I said, the wider context was also the 2003 Casa Blanca attacks attacks, and the weakening of Islamist ideology, which presented Morocco as a country that champions both gender equality and religious reform. But as I said, there have been several challenges, especially at the level of implementation because the, the Modo and I was met by social change for several reasons. And it is still the case that there's a discrepancy of implementation between urban and rural spaces. Speaker 2 00:59:04 There's the facts that many judges continue to resist until the present day, the implementation of certain laws, especially when it comes to minor marriage, there's also the cultural and patriarchal politics, the high illiteracy rates that may hinder, um, proper implementation of, um, those rights. And in addition to that, that we don't want to draw significantly on Islamic law and still raises questions about where the boundaries of his, she had ours, especially that the king himself acknowledged that, um, he cannot forbid what is allowed and render allowed, what is forbidden? So for example, like, I mean, it's not abolished, inheritance is not addressed. Um, so, so this continues to raise questions about the role of institutional religion or the role that it should play in defining citizens rights, as well as the prospects for secularization, which for the feminist movements does not necessarily predicate an exclusion of religion, but rather pushing the boundaries of if she had further. Speaker 0 01:00:11 So, um, thank you for giving us that history and explaining the relationship between the earlier work that many feminists, um, feminist scholars did in Morocco. Uh, and one thing that the, in the last maybe 10, 15 years is that, uh, the us myeloma and, uh, can you tell us more about her work and the impact that is doing in, in Moroccan society? Speaker 2 01:00:34 Yeah, so, um, of course <inaudible> is one of the, um, significance figures of, uh, of Islamic feminism. Currently she is of course, a Moroccan physician or writer, and she was the former director of the center for studies on women in Islam that is affiliated to the state run religious institution <inaudible> of Moroccan scholars. So what is particular about, um, a smaller Moravec's project is that she introduced a third way, feminism, that associates the ideals of Islam and human rights values in an effort to reconcile faith and modern, um, demands. And it's also a double critiques, Western hegemony and traditionalist interpretations of Islam. So, um, her work has paved the way for a new interpretive trajectory that seeks to center female based narratives and subvert, the exclusive male forms of interpretation in depth. And, uh, one of one central arguments to Robert's work is that although the Koran is a divine revelation, his teachings are only experienced within a specific social and political context. Therefore, an unreadable of patriarchal interpretations of the Koran is of critical importance. So for us, the dominant interpretations that privilege temporary regulations, or those with specific social dimensions result and some form of undermining of the Koran spiritual and universal message. Speaker 0 01:02:22 Yeah. So, um, so how is her work received today and the American society? Speaker 2 01:02:30 So, um, so of course there's, um, there's, there's also an interest in context to that because, um, in, in 2018 asthma resigned from her position as a result of a backlash over her support, um, for an equal share for women in, in inheritance a demand that remains controversial in Morocco. So she called for revisits in the traditional texts and, um, understanding, um, jurisdiction on inheritance and light up the change in social and economic dynamics, including women's work and their equal contribution to the creation of wealth, which of course, um, created a social debates because the debates on inheritance in Morocco, it's still controversial, which is also reflective to the fact that LumiNova its work remains an intellectual endeavor that does not necessarily receive grassroots supports, which is an interest in idea. When we talk about the prospects and possibilities for Islamic feminism, because it's still a theological or intellectual project, it is also important to consider that her work is mainly popular among Francophone circles, which echoes the fact that the Islamic feminist project remains elitist. And hasn't been able to garner legitimacy and compete with established, conservative as low mix colors who can easily dismiss these women's work as a secular approach rather than a serious hermeneutical practice. So of course, as a consequence, these women's scholarship is not necessarily taken seriously by the larger population. I Speaker 0 01:04:22 See. I was struck by what you just said. Remember earlier on, you mentioned how, if at the moment I need to see if she criticize the mailer leads, right? And now you mentioned how the, uh, the feminist project is today seen by many as a secular feminist, that leads project. So in a way, um, both of these projects could be maybe critiqued for that type of approach. So where does that leave the wider society? Um, are there any civil society organizations picking up on this work? Are they adopting this? How is the wider society looking at this, or are we just talking about two or maybe three types of elites, just, uh, talking among themselves and leaving out the great number of people outside those conversations? So Speaker 2 01:05:06 Your question is, is as important in the sense that we also need to understand what is, what do we mean by Islamic feminism in the context of Morocco? So both <inaudible>, um, uh, representative of two key moments in the history of Islamic feminism, as a feel logical and intellectual project, not necessarily as aggress roots project, we don't have an Islamic feminist movements, like as L'Amic feminism here. I mean, theological project that engages the text. So when we talk about Morocco, we talk about three main trajectories. We talk about the liberal, um, trajectory that is heavily aggressed roots. And this is what we've been talking about in terms of their activism that led to several reforms. But when I say liberal, I also mean that it recognizes religion as an important paradigm in Moroccan society. There's also, um, the activism that's been carried by women within Islamic movement since the seventies, until the present day, which actually has gone breast roots and has, has had a significant impact over society. And it uses the religious arguments, although we can debate how feminists their activism is, but it has created an impact on society. The third trajectory is of course, state promoted, religiously inspired activism. That's also gone grassroots, but there's also debates on how feminist that is. So I think understanding the nuances of the Islamic feminist project helps us understand that there's particular expression that we're talking about is rather theological. And it's, um, as you said, a few people, um, talking, and it'll be two circles without necessarily having a great impact on society. Speaker 0 01:07:03 Say, thank you so much for that clarification. I think at this very, very important, the way you created these typologies for many people to understand. So I would like them to bring to that conversation. One of these three paradigms, if you will, or three groups. So I want to ask you about not the ISD and maybe Islam is Sophie oriented. I don't know if you can call them feminists, but at least women's scholars who are to some extent, sensitive, even attentive to the women's rights. So can you tell us more about this particular group? Speaker 2 01:07:35 Um, so, uh, I would just quickly want to make a distinction between Islamist and Sophie. So although <inaudible>, um, a belief in and combine in spiritual practice with political activism, but as a category in the context of Morocco, um, these are, when we talk about Islamism and Sufism, these are, um, two different paradigms with different, um, dynamics. Um, so of course <inaudible> is an important figure of, um, again, whether we can call her activism feminist or not, but she figures as one of the movements main, um, main figures, an outspoken critic of the Moroccan states, particularly the, the monarchy. So of course she was the early figures to establish a women's section within her movements, which generated a new pattern in Moroccan, feminist cautiousness, or female led activism and initiated public discussions on the role of women within religion and public life. And she actually advocated the importance of reviving HTS and the importance of integrates and women in the process. Speaker 2 01:08:50 So she, she, she combined, um, political engagements with the importance of theological engagement, which has contributed to the movements go in significantly, um, aggress routes. So although we can make it a case that, uh, <inaudible> feminism functions within a, an Islamist traditional hierarchical structure, um, which can question the possibility and impact of her quote unquote feminism that said, I, I believe that you seen holds their interest in perspective and contributed to shaping the discourse on religiously inspired feminism or activism. She, for example, holds that's the forms of oppression that demarcated Islamic history are a consequence of the establishment of a third deteriorate political system under the Oomycetes, which subsequently led to the establishment of despotic governments and dictatorships and the Muslim world. So she believes that the oppressive constructions of gender and post-colonial Muslim societies are closely related to the authoritarian and some of the rule and regimes. Speaker 2 01:10:01 In other words, democratic forms of governance for her are the only way around, interestingly enough, she also considers the medic human, have a masculine wall and a major hindrance to women's in massive patient, especially in its linkage to the regime, which she describes as autocratic and, um, therefore patriarchal also, um, Nydia was among the Islamist figures who rallied into thousand against the reforms lead into the Moodle winner on the grounds that, um, that those rights are determined by Western ideals. And there's a possibility to define women's rights from within Islamic law. However you seen claims, um, to have fully supported the reform of the one up, but she was particularly critical of the states appropriation of the reform. So she claims to be the first female voice to break the taboo and make public statements about the mood that went to not be in the sacred text and that it should be criticized. Speaker 2 01:11:03 And, um, for her calling, then we don't wanna into what's. Jen meant calling into question the sacred nature of the political system as well, that its legitimacy, um, based on a particular reading of the slump. So she, she subsequently considered wind to be a product of a despotic political tracks. If that promotes the interest of the privileged few, which is, um, which is, which is a very interesting perspective. And for me, it's brave because not many women were able to do that too, because generally this, the feminist movements in Morocco is aligned with our state policies. So, so, um, she of course was, was one of the few women with that kind of critical engagement vis-a-vis state policies, but her ideas didn't go mainstream because of the political exclusion that she experienced as being a member of an oppositional and band group. Speaker 0 01:12:03 Yeah. That is absolutely amazing. And I'm sure that our listeners will now know why Morocco is such an important site for a contemporary Islamic thought in all its varieties and why it should be re-centered in our understanding and the study of Islamic thought in general, uh, as a way of conclusion, Merriam Kenya though is maybe a couple of minutes about your own work. What is your research on what are you currently working on? Speaker 2 01:12:29 Yeah, so, um, so of course, since my doctoral research, my research has examined the different, the diverse articulations of Islamic feminism and post 2000 Morocco based on the observation that while articulations of Islamic feminism have been supported by the states or male dominated religious establishment, um, they also are to be read in a specific, um, in a specific context of the women's longstanding activism and, um, and agency. So my research traces the emergence and contours of these newly gained spaces for women and the fields of activism, religious and spiritual leadership and knowledge production, um, et cetera. So, um, um, my most recent research as a explores the search of new spirituality is in Morocco, some exploring the grow in yoga circles in Morocco and the role of women in shaping new expressions of female and gender subjectivity that is growing outside of institutional Islam with Chis, a very interesting new dynamic. Speaker 2 01:13:40 So the emerging new non-institutional wise spiritual spaces are of course marked by the significance involvement of women as participants and leaders and blurs, the boundaries of gender and spirituality informed by collective and normative readings of a slump. Just also what also, what is also significant about those spaces is that they privilege the centrality of individual experience over, um, hierarchical Variaxis, which serves for me serves as some form of a social critique to mainstream or normative imaginations associated with what a slum is. And that's all for like a diverse expression of religion and spirituality. So I'm very fascinated with that development and, um, and, and, and female religious and spiritual expression and Morocco, Speaker 0 01:14:33 That sounds very exciting. And we're looking forward to reading your research once you get it published. Well, thank you so much, doctor hates, I mean, uh, that was the Promethean mental hates on me. Oh, she's an assistant professor at the international university in Morocco. Thank you once again. Speaker 2 01:14:50 Thank you. It's been a pleasure to be here.